
MAHARAJ: ...the five pranas, panchapranas, become purified; concomitantly the sense organs become purified, and the mind also becomes pure. And when the mind is pure, the language of the sages becomes intelligible. Without such purification, it is not possible to understand the sages. And, ultimately, that purification leads to Self-knowledge, to the Self.
Visitor: Does this purification arise as a consequence of applying oneself to meditation on the sense of “I am"? And is that one’s central responsibility?
M: I am referring to what we call the sattva, signifying the essence of the food that you consume. This body is nothing but food for the consciousness. Now the quality of this sattva is the beingness or the knowledge that we are—the ‘T’-consciousness. And, ultimately, you should know this sattva, what it is; but for the moment I will tell you this is the essence of all the food.
Your question was whether through meditation this purification takes place. Yes. And how this happens is that by meditation the sattva quality gets predominant, the mind gets purified and then the knowledge of the Self is made possible. Just as the quality of sugar is sweetness, so the quality of this sattva , the essence of food, is this knowledge, this “I”-consciousness or, as we also call it, beingness. Just as the sweetness of...
V: How can that be the quality of food? I am just not clear on what you are trying to say. Food can be either very tama- sic or very rajasic ; it depends on the food chosen. Are you talking about food in terms of whatever thoughts, instruction, we ingest, or just simply the gross elements we take in?
M: Ultimately the food has taken this form, which is the body. Now in this body, which is nothing but food, an entity called sattva is present. There is some connection between this sattva and the food. It is not simply that the food is this sattva ; the latter is some subtle product, some essence of the food. Is that clear?
V: It’s becoming clearer.
M: Then there is also something called the moolasattva , the origin of sattva , original essence. Its quality is that you come to know that you are. So in your body that primordial sattva , or moolasattva , is present because of which you have the knowledge that you exist.
Another thing concerns so-called “sickness.” If anything goes wrong with the sattva or the material of the body, there is some disorder which is termed “sickness.” How do the doctors rectify that? By giving you medicine; the medicine is also a kind of sattva. So that medicine rectifies this disorder and then the sickness is cured.
V: Sometimes.
M: Actually, this beingness or knowingness itself is the misery. Prior to the appearance of the beingness you did not have any problems; they started only after its appearance. To repeat: With the form, the beingness appeared—the knowledge that you exist—and along with that, came all the problems. So this knowingness or beingness is nothing but misery. Any comment on this? Do you agree?
V: I agree with that, yes. Sometimes I feel that illness arises as a lawful consequence of what people do; at other times it just seems to be something built into the body that we do not understand and it just arises; it has a force all of its own. And either it will be dissipated when something counters...
M: Again, this beingness, the knowledge “I am,” which I call upadro, is the source of trouble. As I said in the morning, as the result of happiness this source of misery has also begun. In this upadro, in this primary essence, lies the knowledge “I am”—you know that you are.
V; I have no argument with this.
M: You see, the quintessence of this body essence is ultimately the knowledge “I am.” That is sustained by this food-essence body. Do you follow?
V: I follow it...
M: Now, this quintessence that is the knowledge “I am,” in the period of a day, there will be moments when miseries are experienced by it. Because it is in its very nature to experience those. Thus, with the appearance or happening of this “I-am-ness,” miseries are bound to follow, a natural corollary.
V: They usually outweigh the pleasures.
M: This beingness has two aspects: deep sleep and the waking state. “I-am-ness” means that the waking state is there or the deep sleep state is there. So...
V: How do you mean “I-am-ness” signifies the deep sleep or waking state? I don’t understand that.
M: You know in the waking state that you are.
V: In the waking state, yes, I know that I am.
M: When you go to sleep, you do not know that you are. Isn’t that so?
V: That’s true.
M: So that means these two aspects of “I-am-ness” are always there. In deep sleep, “I-am-ness” is forgotten. And because it is forgotten, you are completely relaxed and at peace with yourself. During the waking state, to know that you are is itself a misery; but since you are preoccupied with so many other things, you are able to sustain that waking state.
This quality of beingness, the knowledge “I am,” cannot tolerate itself. It cannot stand itself, alone, just knowing itself. Therefore, that rajoguna is there...it takes the beingness for a ride in various activities, so that it does not dwell only in itself; it is very difficult to sustain that state. And tamoguna is the basest quality. What it is doing is that it provides one with the facility to claim authorship for all the activities—the feeling “I am the doer.” Rajoguna takes one into all the activities, and tamoguna claims authorship or doership for those activities. But understand fully that whatever is happening takes place because of these three qualities, sattvaguna, rajoguna, and tamoguna. They are not your doings, you are completely apart from that. I stress that time and again. This is the play happening in these three gunas. Again understand, you are experiencing this sattvagima, the knowledge “I am.” This I-am-ness is expe¬ rienced by you, the Absolute, but you are not “I-am-ness.” What have you to say on this?
Y: What could I say? I don’t have any comment.
M: What I am expounding here is not normally expounded anywhere.
V: I know, that is why I am here.
M: Having understood, realized and transcended all these three gunas, I know full well their play; that is why I talk like this. I have understood, I have realized, I have transcended them. A number of sages, having done all the expounding, will only take you into sadhana, the disciplines that are to be followed. But this is a subject...prior to discipline, subtler than any discipline, a most subtle one.
V: And yet at the same time the activity that he enjoins us to undertake purifies the play of those gunas in the sense that they don’t keep drawing our attention back into the world. Because, unless there is some responsibility on our part, which Maharaj insists upon as much as anyone else the play of the three gunas will be just random and you will be like a ball kicked around by a bunch of dolphins.
M: By following what was said it will be realized that whatever is happening is happening only in the realm of these gunas. And in this process it is realized one is not part of their play at all. Becoming more and more detached from all worldly activities, one transcends the gunas and knows one does not dwell in their realm.
When you are involved with the gunas, you want to have so many things from the world; but when you thoroughly understand that you are not these gunas, then you want or expect nothing.
V: Is sadhana necessary?
Sadhana, the discipline, is only this: The knowledge which is dwelling in this body, the quintessence of these three gunas —the knowledge “I am,” “I am That”—this is the initial step. You must be one with that, you must abide in that only. You have to think “I am not the body but I am that formless, nameless knowledge indwelling in this body; that (is) ‘I am’.”
When you abide sufficiently long in this state, whatever doubts you may have, that knowledge “I am” itself will sprout out with life and meaning for you, intended for you only, and everything will become clear. No external knowledge will be necessary.
V: Is any technique required for the sadhana?
M: Only conviction! If you are thinking of any initiation...Only the words of the guru that you are not the body! That is the initiation. Stay put there, in that state.
It is spontaneous, natural, that shraddha (faith). What is that faith? I am, without the words, whatever you are, that itself is the faith. Now you have to elevate yourself to the state of Brahman, that “I am” itself is Brahman; this is the condition you have to develop.
V: For that, is it necessary to sit in seclusion for a certain period of time?
M: Until you abide in that firm conviction, probably you will have to go into seclusion. But once you abide and stay put firmly there, you know you are that only; then even if you are in a crowd you will not have a fall from that.
V: At the moment when you are realized, you are That; other times, you are only contemplating that you are That, you are trying to believe that you are That. But the moment the conviction comes, is that the realization?
M: Yes, that is the moment to know.
V: So when you are realized, what are the signs of realization?
M: No symbols are available, because only you shall prevail at that moment.
V: But will one see anything specific?
M: You know, surprisingly, there may be so many things you see. You might see lights...All this illumination is due to what? To atrna-jyoti, the light of the Self, Self-illumination.
V: I have read in several books that simultaneously with the realization, there is an awakening of the kundalini. Is this a fact?
M: What you are saying about kundalini happens to him. I am not dealing with that.
V: Happens to whom?
M: To the one who is expounding that idea. I don’t deal with those concepts. That is Muktananda’s sphere.
V: And several other people say the same.
M: My approach is different. I don’t expound that.
V: Is the result not the same? Whoever attained realization, we are merely told about it. But there is no actual proof. We are told by the realized yogis, that whenever they got realization, supernatural powers were acquired. Strange lights appeared to them; they went into a different sphere. Something terrific happens to them at the time of realization.
M: You might also have visions of various gods. Anything might happen, but that does not mean that you should dwell on those various concepts.
V: Yes, but can those things happen?
M: Yes, but in the process of trying to experience and observe all these things, it is easy to forget the way toward Self-realization. Those people are studying, as it were, on the TV screen; that means they still want to be in an experiential state. They do not transcend that.
V: What Maharaj is expounding, speaking the language of the Gita, is it jnana-marg ?
M: No, not the jnana “path.” Abidance in knowledge is different. Jnana marg means you are walking a path. Your destination is the knowledge “I am”—abidance in that knowledge.
V: That is, according to the Gita, jttana.
M: Marg means you are always trying to walk. I do not want to do any walking.
When you talk about “path,” you think the destination is far off and you have to walk there. The point is that you are right at the destination, so where is the necessity of any path?
V: Is it easily attainable?
M: Spontaneously, it is the natural state, the destination. Unfortunately, you are connected with various types of concepts, and you are bogged down in the quagmire of those concepts. As it is, “you are” is most spontaneous and natural.
V: Again, I will put it in another way. In the Gita...
M: I do not want you to seek support in anything external. There are only two entities, you and me. Don’t introduce a third person or a third support. The dialogue is strictly between us.
V: What difference is there between you, Maharaj, and Lord Krishna?
M: I don’t know what you mean by “difference,” for that term does not occur in my vocabulary.
V: So if I quote Lord Krishna of the Gita, for my own satisfaction, is it...if you don’t enlighten me, who else will?
M: The knowledge “you are" is Lord Krishna.
V: OK. So my knowledge...
M: That is Krishna.
V: My knowledge is that devotion is the easiest way, and either Rama, Krishna or anybody, even Guru, you concentrate on that, don’t even think that I am, who I am, this and that, it is better to be an ant than sugar, and with devotion you take his name, the Lord’s name. Or the Guru’s name. And you get the realization. You even get the jttana. By only bhakti, blind bhakti. Without even thinking who you are, what you are, that knowledge itself, “I am That,” will dawn. With conviction, realization will occur.
M: If you have gone through all that, why did you come here? Having done all these things—the devotional path— the knowledge must have dawned in you. Again, one must ask, why did you come?
V: No, the knowledge has not dawned. I feel incomplete. I was not crowing about devotion. I was wanting. So...
M: There is no question of knowledge dawning in you, because you are that knowledge. It is already there. That is the only condition.
V: By blind devotion?
M: Why do you want blind devotion, when you are already That?
V: Because it is easiest for ninety-nine percent of the people. I can believe in you more easily than I can believe that I am God. I can believe that you are God, you are more godly. You are God. You are shaktiman. I can’t believe that I am shaktiman.
M: You will never be alerted to that higher state if you do not believe that you are the God. That is advaita devotion. There is no difference between God and yourself. You are God only. Only I prevail.
V: Yes, I know. But they say even dvaita and advaita...both will lead you to the Ultimate.
M: A lot of people may say a lot of things. But what I am telling you is this: See that you are and know that you are. Just be that.
V: Is dvaita incorrect? Can it lead to the same...?
M: There is no question of duality because nothing exists except me. Only I exist. I deal only with that Highest, what¬ ever it is. In the lower, everything is true, on that level. But I don’t deal with that stuff at all. I don’t expound the initial stages...That time is over for myself. If anybody places full reliance on my words, that you are the Brahman, you are everything, that itself will transform you.
V: Whatever I am is the result of my prarabdha
M: What is that prarabdha, that destiny, you are talking about? I know of no prarabdha, no destiny. In the initial stages, in the kindergarten thinking of spirituality, I used to say that. To one who is receiving primary initiation into spirituality, for him these lessons are good enough. But not for my sadhana. For an advanced course in spirituality, I will not explain this. These concepts are rejected. If you don’t like my teachings, whatever I say, you may blame me and are free to leave here.
V: Can a man shape his destiny?
M: I have said already: I don’t believe in destiny. If you have been on the path of devotion, where is the necessity of des¬ tiny at all? With devotion, individuality has transformed itself into Brahman, the manifested. So how is the destiny needed for that? That Brahman state, the manifest Brahman, is not subject to any destiny. Is there any question of something good or bad happening to that Brahman state? He who is not one with the Brahman and still thinks he is an individual, will always be thinking that something good or bad is going to happen to him, as an entity conditioned by body-mind.
What have you got to say? Your comments, Sir.
V: One of the things that I feel very strongly is happening in the West, through the Eastern teachings from such representatives as Maharaj and Ramana Maharshi, is that people are so aggres¬ sive in attaining things, and when they get bored with attaining material benefits and sexual satisfactions and all the transitory pleasures of drugs, they turn to the spiritual life; but their view of spirituality is still conditioned by the same motive for attainment.
M: You have to understand in the West people go towards spirituality because they are getting bored with this objective worldly life. So one must understand what is the cause of the misery. That source you must find out. Is it not necessary?
V: I believe it absolutely is. That is why Maharaj’s teaching is so important, because it stands quite apart from the usual teachings...
Second Visitor: I think that what my newfound friend here is still trying to understand is the same basic confusion that we are having much more recently in the West in that people associate realization with attainments relative to this whole chakra system, and it is not that at all. You know when Ramana Maharshi was asked about this, he would say the only centre that interested him was the heart.
M: Anybody coming here will be liquidated: he is not going to get anything.
When you reach that state, the highest state, then only will you be realized, whether you are going to attain or discard. I assure you that you will attain nothing and you will realize that no attainment is required. Abide in the words I have spoken earlier. First do your homework, then ask questions.
I would like to know from you, what medicine is there which will help you to know that you are and put to use that knowledge “you are.”
V: Maharaj’s instruction, that is the only medicine I know.
M: Continue to come here if you want to investigate what you are. Track down what that “you are” is. Investigate that medicine “you are.” And don’t expose all and sundry to what I have told you. Keep it to yourself!
Interpreter: To many he will say: Don’t ask anything. Just listen. By merely listening, they understand; most of their doubts will be cleared. To that lady in the morning he said, just listen, don’t ask any questions. That can be very effective, too. In the flow of the talk, many doubts will be cleared. He is sure of that.
V: Why is there such a divergence between different gurus, Maharishis, and realized yogis? Perhaps they are not realized?
M: No, this is to be explained as follows. Although consciousness is universal and the knowledge “you are,” and whatever knowledge there is, is all common, its expression through the body and the mind is individualistic; there everything is different. Therefore, the path expounded by each sage will be different; it is-bound to be so.
V: All those several paths lead to the...
M: They will lead to the same. Is it not that all paths lead to Delhi? The paths will be different, but the destination is the same. So you can’t compare the path or what I am expounding with somebody else’s.
V: In your method—may I call it method?—have you noticed any siddhis...
M: No. But that is my own doing, because of the com¬ mands of my guru. My guru told me, although you are real¬ ized, you will have to expound knowledge only. No siddhi powers for you. I was very eager...I thought, “I’ll get certain powers, do miracles, remove the sickness of people.” At first, I was thinking along those lines, as an initiate. But my guru told me, “Nothing of the sort for you. You have to expound knowledge only.” There were to be no powers for me. And then he also told me, “You must repeat all these bhajans three or four times a day. You have to do it.” He said, for the sake of all the ignorant people we have to do this.
I do not want to take you by the traditional, conventional, tortuous ways. That is why my teachings are better liked by the foreigners, because none of this traditional, conventional thing is there.
V: The worshipping, the rituals, nothing is there.
M: That is the devotional path. But what I am giving you is atma-yoga. I am not “doing” bhakti yoga ; that is, bhajans, etc.: It is happening, going on by itself! Bhakti-yoga means (a devotee) trying to link up with God. It is not only going on here; it is going on everywhere right from the ants. This means that everybody has that bhakti, even an ant wants to live, which is the same as bhakti. But that ant does not know it. Only a human form...
V: My question is, even a jnani’s bhajans are devoted to some God, say Krishna, which takes for granted saguna bhakti. [To the interpreter :] Are you convinced by the answer? Then in turn you can convince me.
I: What has happened is this: as a jnani he would have remained unknown to the world. That is what his guru thought. So he told him, when Maharaj asked how he could repay this debt after he got realization, you cannot repay this anyway. But if at all you want to repay, you must do bhajans four times a day. Now the purpose of his guru’s command was that when some bhajan goes on somewhere, people were alerted to the fact that this is a place where worship of God is taking place. So that is how people started coming here. Initially, they were mainly Indian people who were not primarily interested in knowing themselves, but who had faith in God. Those people came first, and subse¬ quently others started flowing in, like Maurice Frydman. And thereafter that book [referring to I Am That] was published. Ultimately, you came to know of these teachings because of him. So the purpose of this bhajan was indirectly to let peo¬ ple know about him; otherwise, he would have remained absolutely unknown.
V: It may be correct, but there must be some more to it.
I: Because of this bhajan, people get elevated, don’t they?
Normally, we practice whatever he tells you right at the moment. He wanted to elaborate a little on this point. Present¬ ly, when we are putting the same question again and again, he will not reply at all. He was trying to say, bhajan is going on right from the level of ants up to ours. Eventually, when you get true knowledge, ultimate knowledge, then only will you come to understand that bhakti and jnana yoga are one.
V: And one can get that ultimate knowledge either way?
I: Yes.
The questioner is giving details about a recent visitor to Maharaj , a prominent homeopathic physician from America , who has been asked to utilize his expertise in trying to alleviate Maharajs illness.
M: Since I am abiding in the state which is prior to the gunas , the disease has had no effect on me during the past three months. I am not taking on any fear of that disease. I have voided these three gunas forever. And whatever is hap¬ pening, is happening in the realm of these gunas only. The gunas are doing all this. I am the knower of the gunas and their realm, but I am not the gunas.
Now this disease which is said to be here, on what is that disease? Certainly not on me. That disease has occurred on that to which the name “birth” has been attached. Therefore, that which is born, is suffering from the disease, not me.
Then the next point is, v/hat exactly is born? What is born are the three states: the waking state, the sleeping state and the knowledge “I am,” this consciousness. The body and the vital breath would not be able to function if this consciousness were not present. So these are the three states which have been born. And these three states work through the three attributes {gunas). So these three states and the consequent three attributes, that bundle has been born and whatever happens, happens to that bundle only. I am not concerned with any of that.
I very clearly see that which has been born. And I also know that I am not that which is born. And that is why I am totally fearless. I am entirely without any reaction to a dis¬ ease that would otherwise be traumatic.
Knowing that I am not that which is considered to be born, yet there is a little attachment to it. In what way? Attachment is to that with which I have been associated for a long time. There is that speck of attachment only because I have been attached to this body for eighty years. So I meet somebody from my hometown, whom I have known for a long time. He comes and goes away. I bid him good¬ bye. Now what happens? The fact that he is leaving or has left is not going to bother me. But when he leaves, there is that mere speck of attachment because something or some¬ body i have known for eighty years will be leaving. But that is all. There is not that firm attachment that usually occurs.
This consciousness, which is really what is born, mistakenly attaches itself to this body and thinks it is the body and works through the three gunas; that is the association. And it is that which is born. But I have nothing to do with this.
In the Gita, Lord Krishna tells Arjuna that you are not killing somebody, nor is anybody getting killed. The whole thing is an illusion.
The sweetness is the quality or nature of sugar; but that sweetness is there only so long as the sugar is present. Once the sugar has been consumed or thrown away, there is no more sweetness. So this knowledge “I am,” this consciousness, this feeling or sense of Being, is the quintessence of the body. And if that body essence is gone, this feeling, the sense of Being, will also have gone. This sense of Being cannot remain without the body, just as sweetness cannot remain without the material, which is sugar.
V: What remains then?
M: What remains is the Original, which is unconditioned, without attributes, and without identity: that on which this temporary state of the consciousness and the three states and the three gunas have come and gone. It is called Parabrahman, the Absolute.
This is my basic teaching. Have you any questions on that?
V: I have no fundamental quarrel with it. The only thing I remember from carefully reading the books is that he says there is this tangle of memories that survives with the ordinary, unenlightened person. Is that completely undone in his state?
{Note: The question whether memories continue after disappearance of the beingness frequently crops up because of its alleged relevance to the possibility oi “rebirth.” It is fueled particularly by two statements made in I Am That (Acorn Press, First American Edition, pp. 12 and 381) to the effect that certain memories are preserved, which may be taken as an affirmation that the personality continues after physical death. But, on the other hand, Maharaj states in the same breath, quite unequivocally, that although the memories continue as images and concepts, they do not continue as belong¬ ing to the same person; they merely “supply the energy for a new person.' [Italics by Editor] Thus, the old personality does not undergo rebirth! Gen- erally, Maharaj has an aversion to dealing with this issue. Partly, he feels this is like putting the cart before the horse: First understand the Self, by undoing all identification with the body-mind; then where is the question of “rebirth”?]
M: If there is sugar or the juice of the sugar cane, then there can be sweetness. So if this physical material essence, which is the body, is not there, how can there be any memories? Even the awareness that you are alive, that you exist, the sense of beingness itself, is lost, just as the taste of sweetness is gone.
The lady s question was that after the body and the consciousness leave, there is something which is this Parabrah - man. Then, how does one know this, whatever remains? How does one know that there is something? Look at it this way: Now there are twenty people in this room. All twenty people leave. Then what remains is that, but someone who has left cannot understand what it is. So in that Parabrah - man, which is unconditioned, without attributes, without identity the identity comes only when there is the knowl- edge I am so if that itself is not there, who is there to ask? This is to be understood, not by “someone” (with a body-mind identity), but it must be experienced, and in such a manner that the experiencer and the experience are one. Therefore, you become the experience. Only that way you can know, and it is not the mind that knows it; the very mind has come subsequently, after true consciousness.
If someone asks, What is this Parabrahmajt like?” the answer is it is like Bombay. Don’t give me the geography of Bombay, don t tell me about the atmosphere in Bombay, but tell me what is Bombay? Is it possible to say? You cannot. So also there is nothing you can say, this is Bombay, or this is Parabrahman . If I ask you: Give me a handful of Bombay! you cannot oblige. Similarly, there is no giving or taking of Parabrahman : you can only be that. In fact, the concept or the thought ‘I am” itself is not there. The ques¬ tion was: Is it like sleep? No. Sleep, as I told you, is an attribute of that which has been born. So find out, what is it that has been born. Before the birth, even the thought that I exist is not there. Go home, ponder on it. Because it is something that must unfold itself. You can’t use your brains or thought on it. The Absolute is not easy to get. All mani- festation comes only from a speck of consciousness. [Maharaj is addressing a particular lady in the audience ] Will you remember what I told you?
V: I will make an effort.
M: Remembering something, whatever it is, is itself an aspect of that consciousness which you are. If you don’t have that consciousness, the question of remembering or even thinking does not arise. So the place to start is with this consciousness. And this consciousness can’t be there without the body. This is the mystery that is to unfold.
The consciousness is there so long as the five elements are present. .Now w r hen w r hat is called the great dissolution of the Universe, 3 of all the five elements, takes place, the consciousness also is finished. But the knower of the consciousness, the Absolute state, is unaffected. So I am always in that state and that is why there is no fear of anything. Even when everything was burning in the hole, and there was total destruction, I was merely watching. Just being in a state of witnessing, I was untouched by anything. So being that, what could affect me?
Secondly, whatever appears, really has no substance. It has only a temporary existence. And so long as the appearance is there, pain is also present. And when things disappear, pain is again absent. So only when form is present and the consciousness is there, you feel the pain or the misery. And when there is no form, there is no consciousness, and no feeling of any pain or anything.
V: Axe there times in Maharaj’s awareness when the form that we see is not in his field of awareness, so that he does not feel the pain of what is happening here?
M: So long as the consciousness is there, the pain is felt. But consciousness is the product of the food body, just as in the oil lamp when the oil is present there is a flame. Similarly, this body is like oil, and that flame is the knowledge “I am.” Whatever you see, prior to all that, the knowledge “I am” must be there. And that itself contains the whole thing, your entire world of experience. So the greatest scene is that knowledge “I am” itself; that consciousness itself is the whole film in which everything is contained.
Therefore, the consciousness is there, the pain is felt, but I deny that as my real identity. How I got that real identity is through the guru, the guru’s words, full faith in his words, and meditating on the consciousness, that knowledge; thereafter, I came to know that the usual saying that one is born in the world, is wrong. The fact is that my existence is forever. Ever there. I am not one of the world, but the world is in my consciousness. It was supposed that the body has appeared, has formed in this world. But when the truth came out, it was found that in a certain atom the entire Universe is contained. And what is that atom? It is the beingness, the knowledge “I am.” That contains the whole Universe.
Because of your existence, because you know that you are, you know also that the world is. So this consciousness, because of which you experience the world, is not unimportant; in fact, it is very important. So why not stabilize there? Meditate on that consciousness itself, and find out how this ‘T-am-ness” has appeared. What was its cause? And from what did this consciousness develop? Try to find out, go right to the source!
July 4/5, 1980