4. Once You Know You Exist, You Want to Remain Eternally


Maharaj: There are many persons who have a great attachment to their own individuality. They want first and foremost to remain as an individual and then search, for they are not prepared to lose that individuality. While retaining their identity, they want to find out what is the truth. But in this process, you must get rid of the identity itself. If you really find out what you are, you will see that you are not an individual, you are not a person, you are not a body. And people who cling to their body identity are not fit for this knowledge.

The names and forms that appear, with different colors and all that, their origin is water. But nobody says I’m water, but they say I am the body. But if you see the origin of the body, then ultimately the body has appeared only from water. All these plants and everything, all names and forms, they appear from water only. But still people don t identify themselves with water; they say I am the body. The existence of heaven or hell, or whatever it is, is on this earth only. All names appertain to forms, and all forms appear from the earth and merge again into that. So they are con- cepts, the existence of heaven and hell. Discoveries are made by the scientists; they receive help from their own consciousness, that knowledge “I am” itself. But what it is, they don’t know. They cannot get hold directly of whatever they discover. Various books have been written, but ulti¬ mately Krishna, not a person, but consciousness in a form, has written about itself, what it is. And that I find most appropriate of all the existing scriptures.

Visitor: You mean the Bhagavad Gita?

M: Yes, but I do not say Krishna is a person. It is consciousness in a particular form that authored the Bhagavad Gita. The same consciousness is in you. And it is also this consciousness that was there when you were a child, the same as is present now also. As time passes, the consciousness remains what it is. I call it bal-krishna, the child-consciousness. You give attention to that; catch hold of it and then you will know. That “I”-consciousness is the same in a child as in an older person. If you consider the childhood of present-day great people, great scholars, scientists, politicians, what were they on the first day of their birth? At that stage, the consciousness is present, but the “I”-conscious- ness, that identification “I am,” is not there; only bal- krishna, child ignorance is there. The child does not know that he exists. When he grows up, then only he comes to know that he is; he recognizes the mother, and thereafter he starts to gather so-called knowledge and becomes a great scholar, a great man. But nobody knows what that child- ignorance is. A jnani knows; that is why he becomes free. He has no pride about Self-knowledge. The jnani knows the origin of that consciousness.

This atomic consciousness contains the whole Universe, but yet he knows that he is not that consciousness. So in that case, what pride can he have? He is the Absolute state, in which the “I-am” consciousness is absent. If you meet many jnanis, you will find it easy to recognize them, for they will not have any pride in their Self-knowledge since they have transcended that knowledge also. They say “I am not this knowledge or this consciousness.”

The consciousness in the body leaves when death occurs. And what about that growth of worms created in the body? There is life in that, too. But the main consciousness has left. When the vital force leaves, the body falls.

For forty-two years I have been talking about this subject. When I met my guru, he told me to set aside all these various gods. He told me that my consciousness, because of which I experience the world, is prior to everything. That means I should reflect on this consciousness only, go to its source and find out what it is. The fact that I am experiencing that I am and the world is, is proof that when the dissolution of the universes 2 took place, I was unaffected. If I were to have died at that moment, I would not be experiencing this existence now.

So many great people have said something like Krishna, but when somebody speaks out, he should first know that he is; subsequently something occurs and he speaks. But prior to saying anything, that “I”-consciousness must be present. There was a time, in the Absolute state, when there was no beingness; and then beingness appeared and you said something. So whether it is true or false, prior to the appearance of beingness, you did not know that you were; so whatever you said after the beingness appeared, whether true or false, is also the same. The source of this beingness, of the knowledge “I am” that you have, is in the blade of grass and the grain of rice.

Those people who expound knowledge believe that the world is first and they were born in it afterwards. So long as this conviction is there, they cannot expound knowledge; they don’t know better. When the “I”-consciousness is there, then only the words come out. Prior to the appearance of that consciousness, are there any words? No, you were unknowing of your own existence. Now the first thing you come to know is that you are. And then you say something that occurs to you, don’t you? So whatever you say, whether it is the truth or not, what is the basis for it?

When the beingness is not there, there are no words. Once the beingness appears, whatever occurs is taught to the “disciples” and is promulgated as “religions.” But they are only concepts. That you exist, how do you come to know it first? Because of what? Now at this moment you come to know that you are. How do you know?

V: I don’t know. It is just that this sense is with me, that is all. I can’t trace its source.

M: When you know the source of this beingness or “I”-con- sciousness—that is liberation. Then you become free. Not until then.

V: All I know at this stage, from following the practice Maharaj recommends, is that the more I dwell in that the happier I am and the less concerned I am with my status in the world.

M: Whatever you are saying is just a saying in this world. Prior to the appearance of beingness, if you had known about your existence, eternal and absolute, knowingly would you have entered this form, this body? Now what has happened is that you did not know you were there, initially. Only when you became a two-or three-year old child you started knowing that you exist. So whatever had happened until then, nine months in the womb and one or two years afterwards, is pure ignofance. Unknowingly, all this has happened. So the question is, prior to entering the womb, knowingly would you have done it?

V: Well, it depends upon what sort of advertisement I saw about the world. Knowing what I do now, I don’t think that I would have wanted to.

M: Upon a person’s death, the first stage is that he does not know that he is, beingness has left. The consciousness, the “I-am-ness,” is not there. Then the doctor comes and confirms it, and the body goes for cremation. And because of that which caused the “I-am” knowledge to be present, the body material is there but that “I-am ’ knowledge is now absent. That “I”-consciousness is not there in the body, so whether you bury or cremate it, cut it into pieces, whatever you do, does it matter? There is nobody to protest.

I am giving you some homework now. Whatever you have heard, when you go home, ponder on this subject and write down some points. If you have any questions, you may ask them the next day.

Interpreter: Many of the disciples write to Maharaj and say “I am separated from you, being in the West and you are here; I don’t have money to come, but I don’t feel you are not here. You are here, you and me are one.” That sort of letters he is getting. They are also experiencing the oneness, the non-dual state.

V: They don’t go beyond that.

M: But they cannot transcend, they cannot go beyond that. But still they feel they should come here, although there is oneness. I tell them when they come here, your consciousness is mySelf. So long as you have the conviction that you are a man or a woman, then you miss me. But if you take yourself as the consciousness, then I am always with you— that I call “marriage.” You want to get married with me? Then have these convictions.

Now I am going again to the source. Janmarlana means “birth-marriage.” Who are the two parties that are getting married at the source? Janmarlana, the birth-marriage or the union of two entities: one is called the mother, but it is fluid power. And the other is called the father, who is also fluid power when they unite. That is birth.

This is my spirituality, my study of spirituality; this is what I have been doing all these years. And I have come to the stage to know that I am that principle which was unaffected by the dissolution of the universes. 3 Those are my convictions. I am telling you from my experience that I did not undergo any pain when the whole Universe was on fire, was being destroyed. I was unaffected. Is it true or false?

V: Of Maharaj’s experience?

M: Yes.

V: I believe it, that it is true.

M: That is why that as far as I am concerned, heaven and hell do not exist. There are other people who believe in those and they may experience that sort of thing, but for me they don’t exist.

I: For the past forty-two years he has been talking; now he says that gives him pain because of his ill health. He tells people, especially foreigners who come here, to gather whatever knowledge they can in a short time.

M: Jnaneshwar, a great sage, said, I don’t tell a lie; whatever exists has no substance, it is unreal. The present moment is unreal.

Prior to the appearance of beingness, I did not exist. So what was there? Now you say you exist. So I am going to talk on this subject. What is this existence, or is it non-existence? You tell me sixty or a hundred years back, I was not there. So what was then? What was there a hundred years back? Whatever you reply, is it true or false?

V: I believe it is true. It is just an honest statement of my knowledge. I don’t know, I have no memory of it.

M: So whatever you were saying you were not, that is the real existence. That is true, and whatever you say that you are now is false; that is the truth because it is eternal. That is the state in which the beingness is absent, the eternal state. And because it is eternal, it is the truth. Now with your “I- am-ness,” which is time-bound, it is not eternal; that is why it is untruth—eternal existence of the untruth. The principle which now replies I don’t know what was there a hundred years back, the same principle also says that it was unaffected when the whole universe was destroyed.

If you have full faith in the guru, it means you have his grace. Consciousness or the beingness itself is the love; it is formless. And it wants to exist all the time. That itself is love. That love wants to be. So all your efforts are for that, to sustain that. And that is of supreme importance, because it contains the whole world. Because of that, you experience the world. The world is in that consciousness.

Since you are the Brahman, you lose your identification with the body; you are no longer a human being, as you identity yourself with the Brahman. And that is like a raw mango, which slowly becomes a ripe one; in that state you will see that you are not even the Brahman but the Parabrahman, the witness of that Brahman.

It is essential to understand the working of this body and life force—that is, the psychosomatic process. One must understand it in order to apperceive that the knower is totally apart from this psychosomatic mechanism; he merely witnesses. Now in this body, the life force is a concept, but conceptually there are four parts. The ones we normally know and understand are the madhyama and vaikhari. Madhyama is the thought that comes and gets spoken by the word but underneath that are para and pashyanti\ they underlie and start the whole process. When the words have come out spontaneously through the life force, the breath, they are known as Vedas. When a stage is reached where the Vedas are no longer able to explain what happens, we call it Vedanta, which means the end of the Vedas. But the knower of this is totally separate and not concerned with the body. That is what is to be thoroughly understood.

Interpreter: The disease that he has is of the body and the (vital) breath. Earlier he said, he has passed it on, whatever that disease is, to the beingness. So let the beingness be concerned with it! If the beingness wants to accentuate it, let it do so. If it wants to hold it in abeyance, it can do so. In any case he is merely the witness, and he has passed it on to the beingness on which the disease has really come; that is, the body and the beingness. The life force is the working principle in this apparatus.

M: Whatever is dependent on the life force, including the Veda, exists only so long as the body and the breath last, and the consciousness. When that which is time-bound disappears, then everything else also disappears. Even the Veda disappears. But the knower of this is timeless, spaceless, and is not concerned with what happens to the body, vital breath and consciousness.

When the breath disappears, this apparatus is also useless. And the one who knows this will not identify himself with the psychosomatic process or the apparatus. If he knows this intuitively and very clearly, he can be said to have had jnana. The knower has been given various names— atman, paramatman, Ishwara, God. Names have been given only for the purpose of communication. Unless the principle or concept is given a name, there cannot be any communication. So it must be kept in mind that that which is called atman is not a thing with a shape or form.

Yesterday we discussed how one is likely to mistake the name for the thing. That is to be avoided, and that is why if someone asks what is the Paramatman like, what is the Absolute like, then you may say it is like Bombay. That is merely a name given; you cannot give me a part of Bombay if I asked for it. But one should not be involved with the name to the extent that one forgets the substance. Various names have been given to that Absolute state, but it must be understood that it is unconditioned, has no attributes and possesses no identity.

Amy spiritual practice anyone may do is really based only on the working principle, which is the vital breath, and will therefore last only so long as that breath lasts. Whatever knowledge you have acquired of any kind, material or spiritual, is based only on this consciousness or breath. Other than that, there is no knowledge which anyone in the manifest world can acquire. It is based on this and, therefore, inherently strictly limited. So one may think he is doing this practice on the atman, but he is not actually doing it on the atman] atman is quite separate altogether. He is doing it only from the point of view of the life force. Because of this practice, when the life force is tired, it wants rest. And when you rest, it may go into a state of samadhi. But whatever experience you may have, even in samadhi, is also not timeless; it is subject to time and the one who experiences is different from the experience itself. The experiencer is totally apart. It is up to us to understand the experience and not get involved in it.

What goes on in the world is based on this life force only. And the life force acts through the words. The entire action in the world is based on this, but the atman, the experiencer or the witness is totally apart. And, to repeat, the witness is like Bombay. No action can be attributed to the one who is the witness only. Can Bombay do anything? Any action will last only so long as the life force is there.

One has landed himself in bondage by identifying with a name and form. But one is really that thing which is timeless, spaceless and without identity. Now when we seek truth, we seek truth with a form and that is where the trouble arises. There is name and form and action. The moment the life force disappears, there is no name, no form, no acquisition, no hopes, ambition—nothing.

From the beginning of the life force to the end of it, or when the life force is tired, when it goes into rest, it is time- bound. The arising of the three states (waking, sleep and knowingness) is based on this life force which has appeared. It is not the result of anyone’s desire, neither yours nor mine; it is a spontaneous happening. Whatever practice one docs is done through the instrument of the life force and is therefore time-bound. So one must not be mistaken to think that what one is doing is through the atman. Whatever bondage one thinks one has is also based on these concepts, which are built up because of the life force, and they are all time-bound.

Now what is this bondage, why have we got into it? It is because the mind flows out into words—hence this madhya- ma and vaikhari (the earlier two stages, para and pashyanti are imperceptible). Madhyama is the mind and vaikhari is the words coming out. And through this, the thoughts and the words, we have mistaken our identity as “me” and “mine,” whereas whatever takes place is independent of the one who witnesses and is based entirely on the life force. Would you please understand very clearly that this life force has mistakenly identified itself with the body and the thoughts and the words, and then considers itself to be guilty of something or that is has acquired merit by certain actions, whereas everything takes place independently merely through the action of the life force. If this is clearly understood, then there is no question of either bondage or acquisition of any merit. Is there any God? With the end of the life force, there is no movement, no thought, no word, no waxing or waning.

V: Does the physical death means the end of the life force? If yes, is there no truth in the theory of rebirth?

M: The four kinds of speech, para, pashyanti, madhyama and vaikhari, are the names of the vital breath. Ordinarily, an individual is not aware of para and pashyanti. These two are too subtle, too basic and too deep for him to understand. So he starts working on the third one, madhayma, which is also identified with the mind and comes out with words, and the fourth stage which is called vaikhari. Now on this level of two minds, two kinds of speech, every ignorant individual works. And he has his own image made out of that madhyama, which is mind. If he is ignorant and has not understood this secret of the Universe, he will certainly talk about rebirth, birth and other ideas, concepts with which he has identified himself. Therefore, all these ideas and concepts of rebirth are for the ignorant. Otherwise, there is nothing.

V: Is the science of astrology also in the field of mind that is madhyama, this third type of speech?

M: Remember that madhyama is the name given to the mind, and when there is no vital breath, where is astrology, where is the future, where is the past, for any prani, any living being? One identifies with all the Vedas, all the activities, all that is happening in the world, so long as he has not understood the vital breath, whose language is all the four languages. You should understand all the kinds of speech that flow through the vital breath, prana. So long as you do not recognize this, you are bound to take as absolutely certain whatever mind—that is, madhyama —tells you. Those concepts which the mind has given you will be final for you; thus, there will be heaven and hell and all kinds of merit and demerit. On the other hand, once the vital breath is understood, the one who observes, the witness, is absolutely different, absolutely separate from all these activities that are going on in the world.

V: What is the difference after death between a person who has understood during his lifetime and a person who has not understood?

M: The man who has understood this vital breath is beyond any mental concept, and the one who has not understood is a slave to his thoughts, which are the emanations of the mind.

V: No, but his question was about after death!

M: What do you call death? Now these ingredients have finished burning. They are finished! Does that mean they are dead? When anything becomes invisible, you call it death. It is not that. When something becomes visible, you call it birth.

V: What is the point of assuming a human body?

I: He will not go over these elementary points again in these discussions. Now there are breezes and winds and storms coming over Bombay. Is Bombay suffering or enjoying anything? So also are Paramatman and atman ; they are nothing but to be understood.

V: But if after death, the state of the man of knowledge and the man who has not understood are the same, what is the point of trying to become a man of knowledge?

M: Who will say of the qualityless and attributeless Parabrahman that he is attributeless after death? Only one who understands while living that he is nirguna — qualityless, attributeless—he alone will say it. He does not know whether he is or he is not. Non-beingness or beingness have absolutely no effect on him. That is nirguna, that is Parabrahman. Bombay itself does not know that it exists or does not exist. Does the soul, atman, go to hell or heaven? People say, I have a serious illness, but what am I experiencing? I am experiencing only the vital breath. The vital breath sets and the beingness goes, but I am not affected.

I am asked the question: Can we say that you and I are identical? So I say, show me the sample of what you are and show me the sample of what I am, then I can tell you whether we are the same.

V: But I am sure that all his disciples would like him to continue the manifestation. If a deep wish comes from his disciples, would he respond?

M: What is the need of responding? The one who has deep faith, according to that he will experience.

The experience of this world has come over us due to somebody enjoying the ecstasy, and from the fluid of our parents’ ecstasies have sprung all our woes and miseries.

V: Does he mean that the two always go together? Is it necessary that in the mind both happiness and unhappiness ever coexist?

M: All these concepts are the result of not understanding your nature. Because you have not understood what you are, misery is the result.

V: Does Maharaj look after his family and other things responsibly?

I: Yes, and more than that.

V: Talking of the vital force, the two aspects of it that we are commonly conscious of are our thoughts and the manifest of thoughts as words. What are the other two aspects of the life force? Do we have to be aware of them in the course of our sadhana?

M: That you are aware of your existence, your beingness, is para and pashyanti —two kinds of expression or speech that I talked about. Awareness of your existence is to be aware of these two kinds of speech. Their meaning is that you are in the three stages—waking, sleep and knowingness. The next two kinds of speech are what you performed in the world, your business, how you carried it out with your mind and its activities.

These four types of speech can always be distinguished in the following way: The first one, para, corresponds to your original state when you don’t even know you exist. Then comes this feeling that you are about to become conscious. That is still para, but it is followed by pashyanti, which is this consciousness—when you say, yes, I am alive, I am awake, I exist. Once having this consciousness that you exist, the behavior in the world corresponds with the two final aspects of the vital force. At this stage, the thought comes, the mind starts working ( madhyama) and the words start flowing through the mind (vaikhari).

To recapitulate: First, I am not even conscious; I do not know that I exist, then this consciousness forces itself on that state of unawareness to an extent that we begin to feel that we are conscious. Finally, it forces itself into full consciousness, and I know that I exist, I am there. And that becomes a concept, from which starts the entire world of troubles. In that original state when you are not aware, there is no trouble of any kind. But once this consciousness makes its presence felt, all the trouble starts. This is not mine, I know this is not mine, but it is forced upon me, and then also I begin to say that it is “me”—this is the way that identification takes place.

Earlier, the question arose, when I said “consciousness,” did I mean the body? I said, no, not the body. For the consciousness to appear, it needs a body, it needs a vehicle, and the body is the food for this consciousness. Without food, the body cannot exist, and consciousness cannot exist without the body. So this body is the food for consciousness to exist. If the body disappears, the food disappears, and then the consciousness will also disappear. Then also it may be asked: Is there any difference between what is termed atman or the self and this con¬ sciousness? It is the same thing, but different words are used in different contexts; the content is basically the same. I use the word “taste,” the essence of the body; the taste of that essence is this beingness, of being alive, and wanting to be alive. One loves the state of being alive and wants to perpetuate it as long as possible. So the love for this consciousness is this taste.

V: I have one other question. I heard through the translation of what was being said this morning that most of the spiritual practices that we do in a kind of motivated way are attempts to manipulate ourselves. It is just really the play of the life force.

M; So do they have any value, is that what you mean to ask?

V: No, no. My question is, if this is what we do, how is it that the witness state, which seems to be the core of?

Maharaj’s communication to us, can arise at all in the midst of all these attempts?

M: Although time-bound, the practice will unfold itself in the consciousness. The only important thing is its unfoldment. This will happen when through meditation we give it our fullest attention; then, the consciousness which has come upon us and is pure ignorance, will itself show you your true nature. There is no question of going anywhere, arriving anywhere, or doing anything; you are there already.

One has to work in the world; naturally, carry on your worldly affairs, but understand that that which has come about by itself—that is, this body, mind and consciousness—has appeared in spite of the fact that nobody has asked for it. I did not ask for it; it has come upon me in my original state which is timeless, spaceless, and without attributes. So that whatever has happened is doing this business in the world. The life force and the mind are operating, but the mind will tempt you to believe that it is “you.” Therefore, understand always that you are the timeless, spaceless witness. And even if the mind tells you that you are the one who is acting, don’t believe the mind. Always keep your identity separate from that which is doing the working, thinking and talking. That which has happened—that is, the apparatus which is functioning—has come upon your original essence, but you are not that apparatus. This is to be firmly kept in mind.

Every sentient being has a guru within himself. Unless the guru were present, the being would not have come about. The beingness itself is the guru.

With respect to the four kinds of speech, they are the result of the vital force. Whenever the vital force is present, there is the atman, and vice-versa. When the force leaves the body, all the four kinds of speech also go, and the atman, of course, is not felt. ‘T’-consciousness, beingness and all activities happen only because of the vital force. Thus, when this force leaves the body and the ‘T’-consciousness is no more there, the body falls. Then, I am asking you, who is there?

V: It is nameless. I don’t know who is there; it has no name.

M: The existence of the vital force and the ‘T’-consciousness have the experience of your existence. That is why and how you know that you are; without them you could not know about your own existence.

[To a new visitor :] Do you have any guru? You are practicing yoga. What were you trying to unite, what with what? What were the two entities?

V: To remove the ego.

M: At the moment, you just listen to whatever talks go on here; so sit in the back somewhere. If you like it, you can stay; otherwise, you need not come. But don’t ask any questions. Just listen to the questions and the replies. As a newcomer, you want to ask any questions? You think you don’t know; that is correct. And whatever you think you know, that is not correct. Whatever you understand is not correct. And whatever you do not understand is correct. The former has a beginning and an end. Whatever you do not understand has no beginning and so no end.

V: The mind has to be still, because its movement is to create a disturbance.

M: You said, you are not the mind. So whether the mind is quiet or unsteady, how are you concerned? You are not the mind. Whatever you don’t know, you are. So do you feel the need to sit here any longer?

What I meant is, if you really understand what was said, there is no need to attend. If you understood, once and for all, you can go.

V: I think, what a lot of us feel is that some of us are good at reading books, and others are not so good at that. And it is only too easy to spout back the verbal input we get. But there is so much more that happens when we are in Maharaj’s company, whether it is his physical presence or even only when reading the books. And I think that is what draws us so strongly to be with him. Because it is as if the need for all the talk at times just gets undone and that presence makes itself felt.

M: After having acquired this “I”-consciousness as a child, whatever impressions you gathered subsequently, on that basis only you talk. So that talk is bound to have limited value; it is only objective knowledge. 

V: The only purpose in any communication from Maharaj is to serve our freedom from all that. Sometimes, concepts need to be clarified, but that is the only purpose. But I feel a greater purpose for me in coming here is to drop a lifetime of concern with concepts.

M: Childhood itself is a cheat. There is no truth in that. Supporting all this, whatever your body form—and your body form went on changing—your objective knowledge also continued to change; ultimately, you grow old. Whatever happens, it is all like a dream; it has no substance. And supporting this entire dream, this untruth, is that child; it all began there. As a child, you began gathering knowledge and when you became very old, you forgot everything. So all that objective knowledge was of no use. Now, I am asking, what

6 That is, knowledge of "objects” from a subject’s point of view, and therefore fragmentary, ultimately restricted to name and form. Are you at the moment? Whatever you have gathered as your identity or your form, you are in the process of losing. So what then is your real identity?

Suppose somebody becomes very old, say one hundred twenty-five years, and then becomes very weak, and ultimately is about to die. Now why is it said that that person is dead? Because of what?

V: Objectively, it is very clear to me when a person is dead; the vital breath just leaves and the body is merely a heap of decaying cells after that.

M: When the childhood gets exhausted or extinguished, you call him dead. Because the childhood was originally there, the person was living.

V: Does Maharaj mean life begins and ends with a childish state of mind? I take it that with childhood the body is set into motion. And in a sense, death is the end of the motion that was initiated at birth.

M: Why is it called childhood, what is that entity, and how does that name “childhood” first appear? Try to understand that. What is the principle called “childhood”?

V: Consciousness is very rudimentary in a child. There is as yet no sense of his independent existence, no sense of I am this or I am that—a kind of randomness.

M: In a raw fruit, is there sweetness?

V: No.

M: Ultimately, that sweetness comes, does it not? Where does it come from?

V: From the biochemical changes that occur when the fruit ripens.

M: When you will understand what this childhood is, then that is liberation. Paradoxically, you will realize that you are already liberated. You must try to understand your “I”-consciousness or beingness. With that you can obtain a lot of objective knowledge and try to control the world. And if you don’t understand this consciousness itself, then you are in bondage. You may do anything in the world, but ultimately you are in shackles. The consciousness, the child-consciousness, has to know the consciousness. It has to know itself. That is the only way. If you live for a thousand years, whatever identity you will have from time to time, nothing will remain the same. You will not have any permanent identity for yourself even with such a long life span.

Everything is contained within the knowledge that you are a child, and all that will finally go. So your whole identity will disappear, including even that child identity, eventually.

This childhood, and this child-consciousness, is it true? One who has recognized the fact that it is false, what will you say about that man?

The one who has understood this, becomes in terms of the Vedas, nirguna, nirvana. Nirvana means no sample. Nir- guna means beyond consciousness. So the activities of that, nirguna or nirvana, are like this city of Bombay. What are its activities? One who has understood this truth and has transcended it, his activities are like the city of Bombay.

V: I think the activities are much greater from the city of Bombay and certainly spread much further.

M: What I mean by the city of Bombay is without this land, without the earth portion. Because you cannot say exactly what this Bombay city is.

V: I think there are much better metaphors for it.

M: Small and big you can compare, when there is something as a standard. But if what is to be designated as big or small is the only existing entity, how can you compare? If you cannot show something as smaller, then you cannot present something as large; the whole thing is relative.

V: But we do that all the time.

M: For your worldly activities, in the objective world, yes, you use those terms, like in a dream. So all those activities are like those in the dream, the behavior in the dream state. Like that, all the activities happen.

V: For some of us, life creates incredibly complicated and superficially appealing dreams. The great challenge is to accept these as dreams and see through the bondage they represent to us—their implications for name and fame and our inability to let go of all that.

M: Now this consciousness...as it began with your consciousness as a child, when that “F’-consciousness first appeared...because of its appearance, you can say that somebody is very great. But suppose that this consciousness had not appeared at all, could you then have detected the greatness of somebody?

V: I would not have known, I would be non-conscious.

M: So it means that in the absence of that child-consciousness, you cannot detect greatness, does it not?

V: The funny thing about our first impressions of self- awareness as a child is the painful memories that usually bring you to that rather than all the happy playful times, when there was just no need and you were not thrown back on yourself.

M: So remembering childhood means painful experiences, according to you?

V: Well, that is the first time that self-awareness arises, when you are hurt, rejected, beaten up by your friends, when your mother spanks you, when your mother or father neglects your need for love.

M: Childhood itself is painful. Without that childhood, there is no experience of pain, is there? Very straight, very simple to understand. One who has not experienced childhood, will he have any experience of pain? It all starts with that.

V: I don’t think adulthood is very much better, on its own terms.

M: We are talking about the beginning of everything. It all began with childhood. Now that childhood is also a concept, an idea. So if you understand that, you transcend at once all concepts. That is why it is imperative to understand childhood.

What is the function of childhood? Its function is for you to know that you exist. That is all it has done. Prior to that, you had no experience of the “I”-consciousness. My statement, and that of my guru, is that childhood is a cheat, it is false. The knowledge “I am” itself is a cheat. When the beingness appears, that love for existence is the result of the primary illusion, that maya. Once you come to know that you exist, you feel like enduring eternally. You always want to be, to exist, to survive. And so the struggle begins. All because of that maya.

I: The doctor has told him not to talk.

V: How could any doctor tell Maharaj not to talk? That is the very reason for his being with us.

5: He says, the doctor who examined him and found out what is wrong with him, has advised him not to talk.

V: That is standard advice. Here you have the supreme doctor of life and death, and his medicine comes through his words.


July 5/6, 1980


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