6. Whatever You Can Forget Cannot be the Eternal


Visitor: Is it possible to tell me what to do step to come closer to realization? 

Maharaj: 'Why does one have to do any practice what purpose? 

V: Is no practice to be done then? 

M: You remain confused so long as you are identified with your body. Even your question what is to be done is only from the point of view of your association with the body. As an individual, concerned with the body, what am I to do? - that really is your question. So long as you remain identified with the body, your confusion will continue. 

V: Yes, intellectually it is clear. But when a realized person says that everybody is realized already, it would mean I am realized but I don’t feel like it. 

M: The person who says “I don’t feel like it” is again identified with the body. 

V: So I am unable to express whatever I feel. 

M: Is it not something which is there and which you use? Without this consciousness you would not be able to think or do anything. So that which you are using is already there. 

There is no other practice to be done, except to understand (that is, telling yourself with conviction) that it is this knowledge that you are which is itself the knowledge, and not the way you are using this knowledge at the individual level. So the knowledge itself is the one that exists and must remain pure in and as that knowledge; and you must remain apart from it. That knowledge that you are has mistakenly identified itself with the body and so you are thinking of yourself as the body. But you are the “knowledge.” Strengthen your conviction that you are the knowledge, this beingness, and not the body. 

V: How can one do so? 

M: By meditation, like dhyana. And dhyana means the knowledge must remain in meditation with the knowledge. Now, what is meditation? Meditation is the knowledge “I am” remaining in that knowledge. 

There is the waking state and the sleep state, and the knowledge that you are. I exist, I know that I exist. Other than that, what capital does anyone have than merely this knowledge “I am”? 

V: I see it as being important because everything else is changing. 

M: What can you base your questions on? The only thing that you have is the knowledge that you exist. Other than that, what knowledge do you have? 

V: No knowledge, no other knowledge. 

M: Therefore, be in that. And don’t presume that you are someone to act. That is all you can do at this stage, and remain in that. All questions really come via your mind and the body, from which you have to be separate. This is the total message; remain in that. If you can accept this message, you may come here because you will repeatedly hear the same thing. But if it is not acceptable to you, then don’t waste your time. 

In the spiritual line, what work have you done? Have you read anything, done anything? Been anywhere? 

V: Yes, in 1960 I became interested. At that time, I met Swami Menon [presumably, the visitor is referring to Sri Krishna Mqnon, also known as Sri Atmananda ] and went to his lectures. I go to Ramanashram frequently, because there Maharaj’s book was given to me by Sri Ganesan. 

M: You read Ramana Maharshi? And both volumes of 1 Am That ? 

V: All the time. Ramana Maharshi’s books and Maharaj’s. 

M: What has been said in Ramana Maharshi’s books and what has been said in Maharaj’s books—does it tally? 

V: Absolutely. Ramana Maharshi is somewhat distant and gets you a little scared. Maharaj is tweaking your nose and talking, and easier to absorb. 

M: You have a clear picture then of your true nature, of what you are? 

V: In words, yes. 

M: Even if you accept it in words, that is already a lot. Who is it that accepts what has been said in the words? Now that which accepts what has been said in the words, is that principle not separate from the words? 

V: I am still a person with a memory. I hope to progress beyond that. 

M: What makes you consider yourself as a person? Your identification with the body. Will this individual personality last? It will remain only so long as the identification with the body remains. But once there is a firm conviction that you are not the body, then that individuality is lost. It is the simplest thing, as soon as you have this conviction that you are not the body, then automatically, instantaneously, you become the total manifest. As soon as you leave your individuality, you become the manifest totality. But your true being is apart from even that which is totally manifest. And you assume this individuality within that total manifest so long as you are identified with the body. 

When there is no individuality, what will you consider to be the one who meditates and the meditation? When this individuality is not there, who meditates and on what? People talk very freely of “meditation,” but what do they really do? They use their consciousness to concentrate on something. Dhyana is when this knowledge, this consciousness that I am, meditates on itself and not on something other than itself. 

V: On itself... 

M: Knowledge has no form in any case. 

V: So that is when the “I am” turns in on itself, it again gets qualified with form because that is the way I am to myself now. 

M: When you say you must sit for meditation, the first thing to be done is understand that it is not this body iden- tification that is sitting for meditation, but this knowledge 

and is meditating on itself. When this is firmly understood, then it becomes easy. When this consciousness, this conscious presence, merges in itself, the state of samadbi ensues. When this mana, buddhi, chitta, or whatever names are being used, merges in that state, then even the knowledge “I am meditating” gets lost; this also becomes merged in that state. It is the conceptual feeling that I exist that disappears and merges into the beingness itself. So this conscious presence also gets merged into that knowledge, that beingness—that is samadbi. 

That knowledge unfolds itself and begins to have the knowledge of everything movable and immovable. And that knowledge begins to know itself. And ultimately what happens? The conscious presence alone remains. That is, there is just conscious presence, not “I” or “you,” or anything. I repeat: it is total presence; that is, total manifestation not I, you or any individual. 

This consciousness, which is within the body and therefore has mistakenly assumed that it is the body, gradually realizes its true nature, namely that it is only conscious presence without any inherent individual aspects. Finally, it considers itself the conscious presence of the total manifestation, and all individuality is lost. 

Thus, what starts as selfishness (in the individual sense, as identification with the individual) ultimately becomes knowledge of the Self, as conscious presence. 

Have you any comment on this? When you ask questions, ask them on the basis that you are not the body- mind, but that you are the conscious presence. 

V: It seems that Maharaj is describing two aspects of meditation on the beyond. First is this concentration—consciousness turning in on itself, the sense “I am”— and then, from that standpoint and only then can the conscious being observe with what it has identified itself and free itself from all these identifications. 

The only thing that I come up against occasionally is that during the course of meditation some very powerful forces get released in the body and try to shake it sometimes, and at other times there are visions or psychic experiences. All one has to do during such times, what I understand from Maharaj, is to hold to the sense “I am” and try to observe what is happening even though it can tend to distract one very strongly from this sense of presence. 

M: That is true, except understand that you are not actually doing the witnessing. Of whatever happens, sitting in the morning, or the visions that come to you, merely look at them, but understand that you are not looking at them, there is no you as an entity witnessing them; witnessing takes place by itself. So just be in your meditation, and witnessing takes place of whatever there is to be witnessed. And don’t even involve yourself in the witnessing. There is daylight outside. Well, we see it; we don’t have to make a statement; Ah, I am seeing the daylight there! So, we are not witnessing; witnessing takes place automatically. 

V, One of the interesting things happening in America in the last few years has been the tremendous importance attached to giving people body massages and things like that to kind of artificially free up the flow of this life force through the body. 

I feel this is a purely mechanical thing, and sooner or later all t e old stuff comes back again. But if we open ourselves in the way that Maharaj instructs us, you can just naturally feel all these little areas of contraction in the body melting away. And it seems to me this is one minor but still important reason for the spiritual aspect which he is presenting to us. 

INTERPRETER: He presently does not have enough strength to talk about that. When people refer to devotion, they devote themselves to God, but it is actually devotion to the vital force. All these yogis, what they are doing is they are devoting their time to the vital force. 

V: Does he mean by that the play of the vital force through the whole chakra system, and that they do all these exercises to manipulate the spine to elicit various effects? 

M: The most important thing is the vital force. Whatever names are given for doing all the spiritual practices, ultimately these efforts apply to the vital force only, because without that there is no existence at all, there is no consciousness. So the vital force is the most important. Whenever the vital force is there, that ‘T’-consciousness, the knowledge “I am,” is there. 

And then there are the four kinds of speech. Para and pashyanti refer to existence; and all the activities happen through madhyama and vaikhari. Madhyama means the mind, and vaikhari is the speech as expressed, the words that ultimately come out through the mouth. 

People are directed to other things, but nobody tells them about this birth principle, sattva. That birth principle contains everything; all these four kinds of speech and everything else are contained in it. Not only that, the whole universe, everything that appears, is contained in the birth principle. This is the reason so much stress is placed on finding out what it is. Few people give attention to that birth principle, because they don’t realize its importance. Because of the birth principle, everything is, the world is. All the knowledge of the world is contained in it. Only one in a crore (ten million) persons can find out w r hat the birth principle is. And once you know it, everything, all knowledge, belongs to you—even liberation is yours. 

Then there is that nine-month period in the womb. So what is the content of the womb? It is that knowledge “I am” in dormant condition. That is being developed slowly. So within that birth principle, everything is contained. 

Interpreter: To people who criticize a lot but don’t know anything, or somebody who claims to know too much, Maharaj jokingly says, You have not come out of the womb too fast. So everything, all knowledge, is contained in that womb, he says. 

He has found certain changes taking place in his body— something extraordinary. For example, when you examine his pulse, some kind of inner strength is sensed. How do all these things happen? He says that the disease is for the birth principle, whereas, he being the witness of the birth principle, is unaffected. Because he has no birth, there is also no possibility of death. So he just witnesses all these things. He has passed all that on to the birth principle, he says, being the knower of it. Thus, the disease applies to the birth principle only. It has appeared and ultimately what the disease can do, is to extinguish that birth principle. But I am not that, he says; therefore, he is unconcerned with it. 

Recognize what he is. In order to recognize him, you have to follow his method. He told you that your consciousness is God. Now once you understand that you are not the body but the consciousness, then you get stabilized or established in God’s womb. When you go there, you can know what he is. Until then, you don’t. That is why he says, so many people have come and gone but nobody has recognized him correctly. They come here and have frequent meetings, and then they say that they follow him. Ultimately, they will come to know that they are the Brahman. But still they don’t know me, he says. The knower of Brahman, they don’t know. 

You are still within the realm of consciousness; you are to transcend consciousness to know him. 

The effect of the disease will be that the memory of the birth will disappear. I am not affected, he says. So long as that remnant ink is available, there is a recording done; that applies to the causal body also. When the ink gets dried up, that causal body is also out of questions. 

He says, some people have come to him who have realized. No doubt about it. They are jnanis, but not Brahma- jnanis. They have stabilized in the consciousness. They have understood the godhead, that they are God, but could not transcend it. Brih means “world” and aham means “I,” “I am.” So world together with “I am” (“I am the world”)— that is Brahman. 

For forty-two years he has talked so much that he does not like to talk much now. Although people listen to him, they don’t get rid of their concepts; therefore, they remain ensnared within their concepts. In order to really understand what he says, you have to worship that prana, the vital force. That meditation is necessary. 

M: Wherever there is some sound, there must be something responsible for it. Now the world is there, so something must have been responsible for its appearance. So that is consciousness. Consciousness is there, therefore the world is. Now, in whose presence, can you say, is the eternal truth, the absolute principle? Turiya means where the consciousness is. One who knows turiya is turiyatita. That is my state. Turiya is within the consciousness, which is the product of the five elements. And one who transcends that, who knows the turiya, is turiyatita. In order to be stabilized in turiya, you must know the birth principle. 

V: Turiya is always described as the witness state that sees through waking, dreaming and sleeping. And turiyatita is beyond even that. 

M: That which is called birth, the birth principle itself, is turiya. The experience that you exist itself is turiya. 

At this moment, whatever you are, its principle has a beginning. It had to originate somewhere. It may be any God, Krishna, Rama, or anybody. But it had to originate at some point. Without the birth principle, what is there? 

I: There is no reservation, you know. He does not spare anyone, he just talks straight. 

V: Tell him I saw that very vividly yesterday with a friend whom I brought here. 

I: He says he can talk like that because he has no doubts whatever about what is and what is not. That is why his talk is of this kind. There is no “perhaps,” or “suppose,” and all that kind of thing. 

V: It must be very frustrating for him when people come here and just cling blindly and adamantly to some concept and think they can find a solution through a little manipulation of that. 

M: Many sages in the past have proved their victory over mind. For example, there was Mirabai—Mirabai was a great saint and she was given poison by her husband. But nothing happened to her. 

Then there is the story of another sage. This one was sick and had not taken medicine for a very long time, and all his disciples were very worried. So they said to him, you must take medicine. He answered, bring all your medicines, and he gulped down the whole thing. And they were again worried. But again nothing happened. Now this also is victory over mind. 

Victory over mind is one thing; a better expression would be stabilizing in the Self: conviction about your true nature. 

One common characteristic of these sages is that they know what they are. They identify themselves with the supreme Self. So if somebody tells them about birth, death, sickness, they don’t accept all that; they don’t believe it, because they have no doubts about what they really are. 

V: You might put me out of business! I will go home and tell any patients who come to see me it is all in their head. 

M; Of all the statements that I have heard, I have not accepted any except my guru’s, that I am Brahman. That is the only acceptable statement to me. 

A man came here from Baroda and gave me some number and said, you will become a millionaire, overnight. I said, don’t give me that, you give it to other people who are here. Because tomorrow, in the same manner, you will tell me you are going to die. So if I am going to become a millionaire, I can die also. It is of no value to me. So many people have come, including many doctors. They have said so much; I have just looked at them and ignored whatever they told me. 

We, as concepts, accept them and make them our own; it has become very difficult to reject them. I am not the product of my parents. They have not created me. I have come about spontaneously. In your case, you just think whether your parents attached those eyes here, put the nose there, and the mouth...Whatever information I have prior to birth, that is the only correct information. That knowledge is Parabrahman. Prior to birth is the Absolute, Parabrahman. And after birth is chetana-parabrahman, the manifest Brahman or the consciousness Brahman. 

I am that principle which was not affected when the universe was dissolved so many times. 

This “I am” concept was not there prior to what you call 

away. How am I affected? In no way whatsoever. Because it is not true. This applies to all concepts. Prior to birth, and after birth, whatever knowledge I have, my own, without hearing it from anyone, that is the only true knowledge which I accept. And the proof lies in my guru’s words. 

I tell people whatever is correct. I need not read the Vedas to learn from them, but prior to what is called my birth, whatever knowledge I already had, I am getting confirmation of it in the Vedas. 

In this world, it is common practice for human beings to ask others for knowledge in both worldly and spiritual matters. And from that they try to live—knowledge gathered from others, not their own. People learn whatever they are taught. What they were, prior to being taught, nobody gives attention to. Whatever you can forget, cannot be the eternal; it cannot be the truth. That is why you cannot forget your true state, and that is why you cannot remember it. Whatever you forget, is not the truth, always remember that. 

People come here to ask questions, but what do they know in order to ask questions? Do they have any knowledge of themselves? Do they have any real knowledge? Whatever they have read, heard, or have been taught they regurgitate. 

We identify ourselves with the name given us. And what is that name? It is whatever occurred to our parents. We are so much attached to that name; we act with it constantly in the world. And this name is an accident; the word that occurred to their minds is my name, and in this accidental thing I am taking my form. 

This lady here usually tells her husband what she has heard at these talks. But today this is going to be very difficult for her. Because this knowledge is beyond words. How can you put this into words? 

Normally the thought flow is continuous, always there. How much of that thought flow is useful to you? Of all these thoughts, take only those that are useful to you. Sometimes, I command thoughts to get out: “I don’t want to have anything to do with you.” Fewer than one in a thou- sand people will ever wonder what is the use of all these thoughts that are just flowing. 

V: Very few stop to think about thinking. 

M: When thought has no customers, thought vanishes; there is no thought. 

V: Yet, when he is teaching us, the thoughts are so clear and well defined. It is a paradox. 

M: I have no faith in any religion, including Hinduism. 

When you first come here, just listen to what is going on, try to understand it. Even if questions arise, don’t ask them for the time being—just listen. For now I will be talking about that power which looks like an individual but because of whose presence the world is carrying on its business. It may not be easily comprehensible, but I can’t be bothered to go into much detail and explain everything at this stage. So try to understand as much as you can; otherwise, let it go. 

I am talking about this power which is in the body, but which is the root of the existence and maintenance of the entire universe. What there is in my body, is in eveiyone else’s body also. But everyone else is concerned more about this 

within that corpse. Whatever upheavals occur in the world, they are movements in that power, for it is that which makes the world go around. And whatever events take place are movements in that consciousness. Because we associate ourselves with the events, there is unhappiness. I see things from a different standpoint, from the point of view of the Absolute. So what is your query? 

V: Well, it is just the impersonality of this power, and how nobody seems to have any capacity to control or manipulate it. Most us in the West think we can though, which is the biggest part of the illusion. And sometimes, things seem to go one’s way, but at other times they seem to go very much against what you believe to be right and proper. 

M: Whatever is happening is bound to happen. There is a series of events; a scenario is written down. So according to that scenario, things happen. If we are identified with all sorts of things, we have certain hopes and aspirations; and if things turn out accordingly, we are happy. If the things that happen are not according to our wishes, we are unhappy. So we will continue to be happy and unhappy in an endless cycle, so long as we persist in this attitude. However, the moment we see things in proper perspective—that all we can do is to see that witnessing happens, and that whatever happens is independent of our thoughts—then there is a different state. There is no volition as far as an individual is concerned; things happen on their own. When that is seen, there is already a certain peace of mind. 

Whatever people complain about, the five elements are not bothered. So why should what happens in the five elements bother the individual? If the five elements themselves are not bothered by what people think and what they do or not do, how is this source of those elements, upon which they depend, concerned? Why would it be concerned? 

Some time ago, I had suggested to you to read the Gita from the standpoint of Lord Krishna, not from that of Arju- na. Now even when doing that, you must understand what I meant by Lord Krishna. I did not mean Lord Krishna as an individual personality. I meant by Lord Krishna that speck of consciousness within you that I am, that “I-am-ness.” That is Lord Krishna, this “I-am-ness,” and you should read the book from that viewpoint. As far as anybody is concerned, could there be the world, could there be God, could there be anything at all in the absence of that Krishna consciousness? 

V: No, I don’t believe so. 

M: The moment this is clearly understood, that is it. There is nothing further to be done. And whatever people continue to do or think they are doing, they are purely a concept based on a certain image they have of themselves. And once they act according to that image, they will be susceptible to all kinds of unhappiness. Whatever happens is a mere movement in that consciousness. Once this is understood, nothing remains to be done: there is nothing you can or need to do. 

Vs There remains a kind of paradox in the sense that when one embarks on a consideration of the spiritual life, certain decisions have to be made to minimize, or at least economize, one’s worldly activities so that one may have more time available for such consideration. There is also some sense of urgency involved in this, probably still because of the illusion of being this person. But if in the enlightened state there is simply this posture of passive witnessing, how is it that these decisions get-made and how is it that they are carried through? 

M: Only this concept that you have about yourself, that is what decides. Whether he be a big man, an important man, or a small man, whatever he decides, or thinks he decides, it is purely a concept. That is, the individual as an object thinks he can decide, but in fact no object can decide. If he does not understand, then the whole thing is conceptual. It is to be understood that the body-mind complex is merely an object, a phenomenon; and no phenomenon can act. So the concept is very much involved in your body-mind complex. 

You will never be able to grasp your true nature; for this, the center of perception must change. If that center of perception is a phenomenon, then whichever way you look, that looking is still from the center of the phenomenon. So unless that center of perceiving itself-is changed to the Noumenon, you will never get an idea of your true nature. 

Who has decided that I am the body? Purely a concept. This concept is, of course, on the level of the mind. So it is only a concept that I am the body. And it is equally a concept that whatever action takes place, it is done by this body; that is, there has been an “objectivization," a concept that I am this object, the body. From then on, it is the concept that whatever the body does, is my doing. But once this concept is understood—that is, once the object is known as an object, the false as the false—then you take the standpoint of the subject. 1 Once you take that standpoint, the object disappears. And you view whatever takes place as a happening in the condition, and you are not concerned with it; you are merely viewing it. 

That I am the body and an individual personality means I am time-bound. There is a measure of time. That same concept which has taken to saying I am the body, will say, I am born and will die. Who says, I will die? Only the concept. Once you are away from the concept, the subject has no time in it. There is no space-time concept as far as the subject is concerned. 

I repeat, not only is it this concept that says “I am", the body, but it is also conscious of the fact that it is time- bound; thus, it says, I will die. But the one who knows the concept is not time-bound; he is quite apart from the concept. The body dies. This means what? It means only the thought “I am,” that concept, has disappeared. Nothing has happened to the knower of the whole happening. 

One who knows that this is a concept and that the concept will disappear, does not have the experience of either the birth, the happiness or unhappiness, or the death. 

V: Maharaj was saying that we are all subject to this power, and we can do nothing over and against this power; it is really just a concept in our mind, and it never works out. Well, in a sense, from the standpoint that we come to him, the arising of enlightenment in an individual would seem to be quite apart from any volitional activity. 

M: The whole object of the spiritual search or quest—there is no quest really, but we just use that word here for the sake of communication—is to understand the concept as a concept, the false as the false. There is nothing to be acquired. 

That I am God or that I am Christ, Allah, Muhammad, or whatever it is, is still based on the concept “I am.” Because, unless that concept is reneged, all that you build on it will still be an illusion. So ultimately, only when this “I-am-ness” itself disappears, will you be free of the concept. So long as the basic concept “I am” is there, the conceptual element cannot disappear. It is the concept itself that has given various names to itself, but it is still the same concept. 

Without this basic concept "I am,” where is the world, God, where is Ishwara, Christ, Allah, anyone? Before this concept of “I am” came on you, were you happy or unhappy? Was there even any feeling of happiness or unhappi- ness? Any of the dualities? 

V: I don’t know. 

M: I had no experience of happiness or unhappiness because this concept “I am” was not there. 

V: Nor was there any awareness of that fact. 

M: Whatever conceivable thing or feeling, or thought, it can come only when there is this basic “I-am-ness.” The basic “I-am-ness” itself was not there. So, who was to know, who was to be aware? The very feeling of existence was not there. That I am, that I exist, the feeling, the concept itself was not there, so who was to have any feeling? Who was to have any awareness, who was to have any consciousness? 

If I am a yogi, a king, or whatever, this consciousness that I am, this “I-am-ness,” imagination, mind, call it what you like, is only this concept. Before this concept arose, was there anything? There was nothing. There was not even any happiness or unhappiness: the perfect state. 

V: I think the other thing that was absent and gives rise to so may of our questions is the sense of time. For example, why was I not aware in the past? If there is some understanding, there is no past. 

M: Exactly. When one talks of consciousness, one is likely to think in terms of an individual. But understand that it is not really the individual that has consciousness, but it is the consciousness that assumes innumerable forms. 

I keep repeating that the average person will not understand this. Why? Because it is too simple! To grasp, one wants something, some form, some shape. That “something” is born, and is going to die or disappear is all imagination, all an illusion nothing is born. It is the child born of a barren woman. Who calls it that? Even that is a concept. Because in the absence of the basic concept “I am,” there is no thought, no awareness, no consciousness of one’s existence. 

Friend of yours? Will he reach the state of absorbing what has been said now? 

V: [To the interpreter] Tell him, he is at home licking his wounds. Another feeling or idea I just wanted to put to Maharaj, while on the subject of concepts, especially this fundamental concept “I am,” is that we tend to confuse it with all the crude, ill-formed thoughts that...but in a sense this concept is like the most subtle activity right at the V6ry touchstone of consciousness; you can miss its fundamental nature if you just consider it in the way that we ordinarily use the word “concept.” 

M: One in ten million will grasp the subtle part of the whole thing. 

V: The total population of Bombay! But obviously the Maharaj has not got disheartened either. He has been talking for forty-two years. How many times has he seen anybody for whom he has held out any hope at all? 

M; Even then, it is a concept again. But I give you a criterion by which one can sort of judge something. 

When a stage is reached that one feels deeply that whatever is being done is happening and one has not got anything to do with it, then it becomes such a deep conviction that whatever is happening is not happening really. And that whatever seems to be happening is also an illusion. That may be final. In other words, totally apart from whatever seems to be happening, when one stops thinking that one is living, and gets the feeling that one is being lived, that whatever one is doing, one is not doing, but one is made to do, then that is sort of a criterion. 

V; The teacher in the West who has his disciples ask themselves that question, who is the one who is living you now... 

M: It can never be announced. 

Y; That is true. 

M: If an answer is given, it can only be at the mind level. If there is someone who has done a lot of sadhana, and having done that, still has not achieved anything, he will have ques- tions to ask, such as “What have I been doing wrong?” 

V: One of the obvious answers for a lot of people who come here is that they have been waiting for Maharaj’s teaching to come into their lives. 

M: How do all people in the world, successful or otherwise, operate? When you look into it, you will find that everyone has assumed a “sample,” a certain image of himself. I am so and so—an image or a pose. And it is from that pose that he is acting. That pose has been taken by his concept about himself. And only someone who understands this—the source of his actions—becomes free of it. He sees the false as the false. 

These godmen, even rishis, munis, who consider themselves avatars, every single one of them, are doing the same thing. They have assumed a certain pose, based on a particular concept. And unless they also see why they are acting and how they are acting from that pose, based on concept, they will continue to do so and not be free from it. 

V: I have often felt that everybody in this world is trying to present some sort of face, and all our activities are in aid of maintaining that sense of the self we have, to protect us from having to look beyond it. 

We were making some funny remarks about psychiatrists yesterday. Until they begin to understand that so many of people’s neurotic behaviors occur when this face they are trying to present is being threatened or challenged in some way, I don’t think they will ever know what they are doing. 

M; Psychiatrists will have first to understand what mind is, not how the mind works, but what mind itself is. Then there may be some change. 

V: It is a long way off. 

M: It is indeed. 

V: Because they are never going to learn that from books. That is where everybody thinks he is going to learn it from. 

M: The Marathi word for psychiatrist is mana-shastri ; that is, mana is mind, so “doctor of the mind.” Unless the doctor of the mind first understands what mind is, he will not get anywhere. Whatever goes on is based on the mind. The main question he should address in the first place is: What is it that the mind itself is based on? What is that of which mind is the content? Then he will get somewhere. Whatever goes on in the world is based on concept. The concept in action is “mind.” Have you thoroughly understood the fact that you are not the concept but the knower of the concept? Whatever names and designations exist in the world, they are all of concept. And you are not the concept. What I say, has it now acquired some familiarity? 

V: Very much so. I have tried to live with it for the past two years, every day of my life. 

M: It is not something to be put into practice easily. Only look at yourself. This is “you.” There is nothing to be done! I will never let you get away from it. Nothing to be lived; in fact, that is what was said earlier. When you realize what is living, what you think you are living, is that you are merely being lived. Whatever you may think you have understood, whatever is your knowledge, it is all a concept. Rishi, muni , yogi, king, whoever he may be, is all based on concept, a pose taken. 

V: One thing that has baffled me for some time is with respect to a man I came across, with all sorts of miraculous powers who very obviously professed himself as such and such, an avatar. This seems to me a concept which is not true to the essence of what India has always stood for and Maharaj so obviously represents. With my scientific background, I could not doubt the veracity of this man’s claims, once I was able to observe what happened to people before and after the performance of a particular miracle. But I have found it hard to understand why a man with such incredible control over the workings of nature and his ability to manipulate it, did not seem to have the same degree of insight back into what are the seeds of this whole concept. 

M: Is this someone in San Francisco? 

V: No, no, I am talking of Sai Baba. 

I: He always goes to the root of any matter. He says, there is Sai Baba. So what is Sai Baba? When we say Sai Baba, what is Baba, and how is it Baba? And earlier he said, why open someone else’s shop? 

V: It does not matter to me. 

Is When he had the energy, he used to speak a lot. Whoever came at any level, he would speak to him. But now that he is not too well, he says he wants to speak only to some scientists with specialized knowledge of the subject, of the five elements. So he would be able to challenge whatever is being said. Otherwise, he says, it would be a waste of energy, of which he is already depleted. 

V: After a while that (scientific) knowledge—and that is what I am engaged in—is very boring. It is ever the same, and it does not fulfill you. 


July 7/8, 1980 

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