
MAHARAJ: People who think themselves to be in a ppsition to air their knowledge forget one basic fact, namely that they go by mere appearances.
Someone expounds knowledge and the one who receives it begins to ape the person from whom he has received the knowledge. Thus, whatever the teacher wears, he will wear; whatever mannerisms the teacher affects, he will imitate. And the transfer of so-called “knowledge” has been only that of concepts. This is essentially how tradition becomes established and traditional forms of worship come into being, all of which has nothing to do with the basic knowledge.
Whatever you have heard, whatever you have been told, will have no value as far as I am concerned. I want to know whether you accept the fact that the only knowledge that you really have is the knowledge that you are, this consciousness. Other than that, whatever knowledge you think you have, is mere hearsay, something acquired, based on that illusory consciousness. Is that so or is it not so?
Visitors To me it is so. The knowledge has radically stripped away the baggage with which I came here. I just don’t have any interest in it anymore.
M: What is left is the basic concept that I am. That is the only concept that remains, and even that has to go. If you encourage it, it will build up all kinds of burdens. If you ignore it, it will go away.
V: I feel since I have been here with Maharaj that the one thing he has drawn me back to constantly is this absolute need to dwell on the sense “I am,” and through that to transcend it. Anything else—I can think about it, say about it, do about it—will only distract me from the central command he has given me. And it is like this instruction I first received by reading his books, which is only being thoroughly confirmed and strengthened in his company; it is the key which is the verbal form of his grace to me.
M: In the end, one has to give up even the association with this consciousness itself. That is the ultimately aim.
V: That to me is when the paradox of his teaching comes in, as one is always making this assumption about oneself. And it is like the assumption has to undo the assumption which it is making about itself. There is that unfathomable element of grace that comes into this to make one stand outside what one is always doing in the sense of defining oneself as this I am.” It can’t be expressed.
M: He who starts the search along a spiritual path expects to get something. But when he understands what I am saying, then the very need for something vanishes.
V: Expectation itself disappears.
M: One who will die with his ties of affection for the family, he will not be able to understand the gist of this matter, the secret of this knowledge. The ultimate conclusion one arrives at, if one understands the teaching correctly, is that there is nothing like an entity “I.” Then where is the question of anyone wanting anything? So whether it is something worldly or unworldly, where is the question of anything at all to be sought? And by whom?
Consciousness has come upon one by itself, spontaneously. And that which has come spontaneously will go away in the same manner. So what is it that I can consider as my identity? That this consciousness has come upon you unwittingly, spontaneously, is it or is it not a fact?
V: It is absolutely true. I have nothing to do with the rising or falling of this consciousness.
Maharaj was talking about desire this morning and how for a man who is completely liberated, his home is the Absolute and desire comes to an end. What I am wondering is whether that is the case in an absolute sense? It seems to me that as long as this body-beingness is in existence, there will always be desires arising. Do they have a more lawful nature and do not bind for the man who is liberated? Or is it that desire truly comes to an end and the only urges that arise are purely for survival of his body-mind?
M: The jtiani may do whatever he likes. Outwardly, it may appear that he has desires and is trying to fulfill them. But, ultimately, when he knows that he has no identity, he is the Absolute. Then, who is going to benefit from these desires, who is even concerned with them?
V: The force of desire is undone, that is clear.
M: After listening to this talk, what do you feel about yourself?
V: There are still desires arising in me that I am not free from. That is very clear, and also that this body-mind has its destiny. The main message to me of his teaching is that a life in the world and a life of service are perfectly compatible with the spiritual practice which he recommends. And the desires that still arise will lose their force, not because of any manipulation on my part but simply because I turn to this practice instead of the desires.
M: If you consider yourself to have a name and form, to have an identity, then the desires will have an effect on you. But when you know that you really do not have any design—no color, no name, no form—then on whom will these desires have an effect?
V: So often people when they begin a spiritual practice get veiy upset; it is commonly reported when you come in the graceful company of a spiritual master that these desires seem to get intensified rather than magically dissipated. And it is like Maharaj two or three days ago was talking about the life force being intensified and this purification taking place. What he was saying to me was that there is nothing you can do about those desires. This is what I have understood from his teaching. The only thing we can do is to turn to this practice with more sincerity, more intensity, arid just leave the desires to themselves.
M: It is not necessary to wilfully ignore the desires. Just give attention to your “I”-consciousness—that is enough.
In the food essence the pulsation of the vital breath occurs. And the vital breath contains this beingness, that touch of “I-am-ness.” And that touch of “I-am-ness” or this consciousness, with the help of the body and the vital breath, carries out all the activities in the world. If the consciousness were not there, nobody would feel the vital breath. In this organization, what is your identity, what are you?
V: I am that which observes it. From what I hear Maharaj saying, it is not that the vital breath in the liber- ated state comes to an end. Obviously, its play is still present in Maharaj.
M: You are observing what?
Y: The play of the vital breath in the body.
M: At the same time, do you not also observe the consciousness? When the vital breath is there, the consciousness is also there. That consciousness or that “I-am-ness” is termed Ishwara. godly. When the vital breath is gone, that godly principle is also gone.
V: The presence of the animating force that this vital breath represents to us, the time I most observe its action is when I am doing what Maharaj tells me. In that sense of “I am” one feels all sorts of things happening in the body that are not normally noticed. I am not sure if that is what he is asking.
M: I am asking whether you are observing consciousness also? You say you are in a position to observe the vital breath and its actions through the body, the bodily activities.
V: I feel it can’t be observed, the consciousness...
M: Can you observe consciousness also? How do you know that you are? The consciousness knoAvs, the body does not know.
V: I think consciousness gets used in many different ways. To me consciousness is awareness itself. I know you use it
way it is for me...No, I don’t feel consciousness is like a thing you can observe; I think this type of definition of “I- am-ness” is a “gift” you want to know.
M: Do you observe consciousness, do you observe “I-am- ness”?
V: “I-am-ness,” yes, sometimes.
M: For many hours you are witnessing the consciousness, that “I-am-ness.” What this means is that you know that you are, that is all. Witnessing means just that. Since you know you are, you know all other things. First, the knowingness knows itself, knowing that “I am.” And in the illumination by that “I-am-ness,” or that consciousness, everything else is observed. I have had to repeat the same lesson again and again, and I do not want to run kindergarten classes of spirituality.
Interpreter: People go to visit and just have a look at sages; they are not interested in getting any knowledge, especially not this kind of profound spiritual knowledge. So Maharaj is saying since most of our people are like that, you can just tell them you have seen me and you better go now. He will not presently invite any newcomers. Previously, out of sheer exuberance, he used to invite people and say, come on, you receive this. Those days are gone.
He is in the state now in which there is no question of a god and a devotee, a jnani and people wanting to listen to him. That difference is already gone. So why should he bother about anything? From his standpoint, nothing is, everything is illusion, all of which he has already expounded in great detail.
V: Sometimes, it is just a matter of terms, not one of misunderstanding and sometimes I think when Maharaj’s teaching is put in to English, more attention could be paid to using terms consistent with the way that most people understand them. Otherwise, the full force of those teachings will be lost.
I: These translations are in his own vocabulary of spirituality.
V: People have had to revert completely to using the Sanskrit words, and then spending pages trying to explain them. There just are not that many words in English to explain what Maharaj is expounding.
I: English English is different from American English.
V: That I know, because I was brought up with English English.
I: We, too, have a number of difficulties. Take the word vijnana, for example. Vijnana is used in physics and other sciences, but here that word is used as absolute knowledge. Ajnana is the lowest; that is, ignorance. Jnana is knowledge and vijnana is transcending knowledge, according to Maharaj.
M? You see, this “I-am-ness” is normally this five-elemental interaction and play. Out of the earth, with the help of water, sprouting of vegetation takes place. Out of vegetation, the essences are drawn and out of the essences, which are the food for all beings, come the grains for human beings. Now from the quintessence of this food, the “I-am-ness” is sustained. The food is stored in the form of a body. The food is continuously consumed by the vital breath. And in the process of consuming this food, the vital breath sustains that flame of “I-am-ness.” To have “I-am-ness,” the food body and vital breath are very necessary; in short, one may say it is a product of food body essence and vital breath. Then only this “I-am-ness” or consciousness is available.
Now the consciousness, when it gets involved with the body-mind, is the individual. It is conditioned by body and mind. Mind is concepts. Whatever it receives through the five senses, and is stored, that is the mind. And whatever the words that flow out, that is also mind. So when that consciousness is conditioned by the body and the mind, it is individualistic, a personality. Aaid I always tell people, you depersonify yourself by not identifying with the body-mind. When you do that, you are that manifest principle; you are no more a personality, you are only consciousness.
When you are in that consciousness state, you are in a position to observe the mind flow, any thoughts occurring to you—you are apart from thought. You don’t identify with that thought. Since you observe the body and its actions, you are not one with those; you are apart from that body. Thus, you are now in consciousness; that is the first stage. So when you are only consciousness, you are all manifest; this is to be realized. Then, provided you are, everything is, your world is, and your god is. You are the primary cause, the prerequisite for anything else to exist, whether it be your god or your world. You abide only in consciousness. In your attention, only consciousness should be there. That is the meditation.
Now the next step is—the question raised in the morning—are you in a position to observe consciousness? This is also the final step. When you are in a position to observe or witness consciousness—and, of course, the vital breath, body and its actions—then by virtue of that very observation, you are apart from the consciousness.
V: Maharaj has mentioned this on other days. Like the first step is getting established in this awareness of “I am,” and being confirmed, strengthened and stabilized in that condition. Then one is in a position to witness what one always assumes oneself to be.
M: So when you are in a position to observe consciousness, you are out of consciousness. Then you are what we call
stabilized in you, or are you still wavering, vacillating?
V: This central sense of “I-am-ness" has become much firmer since I have been here, without me having to go home, get my book out twice a day, read it, and then remember what I should be doing. I find I am being naturally drawn to it time and again during the day.
M: Is it not possible to remember that witnessing of the consciousness is to be done or is to happen? After reading the book I Am That, are you not able to conclude that witnessing of the consciousness is necessary?
Suppose you just got married; thereafter, you know you are different somehow, your status has changed: you witness your wife, you know you are a husband. Similarly, after reading the book, you know consciousness is there. Is it (the consciousness) not witnessing the consciousness? Reading is one thing, but actually applying it to yourself is another thing. Having understood my talks, are you able to fathom your own identity? Could your identity dawn upon yourself?
V: At moments, yes. Like the sun coming up at dawn, our overwhelming sense of it.
M: Can you understand the dawn? Before the sunrise, can you understand sunrise?
V: Intellectually, yes.
M: Not at all.
V: You can’t witness it.
M; To the knowledge “I am,” has it drawn a tangible, perceptible image? Is it vety clear, this particular point? Then, how are you going to carry out your normal worldly activities? Since you know that you have no innate form, no design, how are you going to carry out, deliberately, your responsibilities?
V: I am not going to carry them out; they are just going to go on.
M: Have you been able to erase completely that symbol of birth that you represent?
V: Not completely, no.
M: Then, how can you state that you have got the knowledge?
V: I am not claiming for a minute that it is stable, it is...I am just saying that at times the sense of what Maharaj is talking about is overwhelmingly clear.
M: You apparently feel that you have understood the meaning of the words. But what is it that you have understood? For now, you might beam that ecstatic mood, but how long is it going to last, that blissful moment? It is like a flame, depending on the fuel.
V: Ecstasy is bound in time.
M: What is not time-bound? The experience that you are is time-bound. You know you are; it is a time-bound state. Consciousness means a time-bound state, and time appears spontaneously. This consciousness or “I-am-ness” is the time, which I call kala. Kala means time. With the appearance of consciousness, the ticking of time started. All this is the play of concepts. This primary concept “I am appears spontaneously. It likes “I am”; it loves that “I am state. Devouring ever more concepts, it gets totally enmeshed in them. And what is the source of all con- cepts? This primary feeling “I am.” But never forget the fact that it is itself a concept, time-bound. And so it is all mental entertainment.
The world is an illusion, not eternal. Why is it unreal? Because none of the knowledge is going to remain permanently, as real knowledge. I had a number of identities: I was a child, I was a boy, I was a teenager, I was a middle- aged man, I was an old man. Like other identities that I thought would remain constant, they never remained so. Finally, I became very old. And then I had to be fed, you know, with a bottle. So which identity remained honest with me?
About the maturity you get with age—although on one side you get more mature, the other side gets chopped off, cut off. At one side I have aged so much, grown with age; but at the other side, I have cut off the remaining life. Whatever I had collected as my own, as knowledge, I have finally discarded. And nothing remains with me at the moment of death: everything is gone.
Right from childhood to old age, you have various associations—physical, mental and conceptual. These associations will not remain with you till the end; all are passing phases. Finally, the association of “I-am-ness,” which you presumed to have with you constantly, is in the end also going to quit you, because that, too, is time-bound. Thus, when the body drops, that “I am” feeling which had been there from childhood, also leaves. So, that which is eternal and the truth, is something beyond the grasp of the five elements; it transcends all five-elemental states. Whatever is being witnessed is constantly changing. Only the changing state is being witnessed, but the witness is not changing. And when finally witnessing stops completely, there is the eternal state. This riddle will not be solved until you get the knowledge of your birth.
V: How is that possible?
M: Don’t ask me; enquire within yourself. That knowledge about your birth you must definitely have.
V: True, but in this world, even if you are on the right path, or if you do good, you never get what you deserve.
M: What you think proper in the morning, becomes improper in the evening. The principle which knows that is not even contained in the book I Am That. It does not have that information. What is that principle?
V: No book can contain it, no words can describe it.
M: If you understand that it is beyond all words, then would you have that pride or ego that you are realized, if you are realized?
V: There will be no room for it.
I: To drive home that point, he does not just go along with the questioner, but takes an opposite line of argument, playing as it were, a special kind of devil’s advocate.
V: That is his great service to us. If we still have an image that we want to present to him, we need to see that. He makes us feel it very strongly. If we truly heard and realized what he was saying, there would be no insecurity. There would be nothing in us that he could threaten. And yet there is. If that happiness in which there is no room for ego were truly ours, there would be no insecurity left in us—no fear, no anxiety. What I feel we have to pray for from his grace is to have the same impatience with ourselves as he sometimes shows us. And yet, great patience is there at the same time.
M: That will depend on your sense of urgency, your earnestness.
Without the vital breath, Ishwara or God has no soul; and without God, the vital breath has no existence. Whenever man limits his consciousness to body and mind, he is called jiva. Otherwise, he is absolutely independent of these two, which are acting and reacting. Consciousness, which expresses itself in various shapes and forms, is all one; whether it be an insect, a big boar, or a big man, there is no difference whatsoever.
Without the vital force, nobody can worship God. Actually, it is the vital breath, the life force, which is worshipping God. And without God, there is no existence of the vital breath. And without vital breath, there is no expression to God. Without this vital force, would there be even a reference to God?
When this life force seeks the consciousness as God itself, then dawns the light of the consciousness with which the life force works and achieves what it wants to achieve that is, oneness with God. Even if you take the life force as God itself, the result will be the same, because the working principle is the life force. The consciousness is merely the witnessing process. When the life force carries on without any obstacles, then one is not even aware of this life force since it moves so freely and, therefore, you have a sense of wellbeing, you are happy. If there is an obstruction, you become aware of a disturbance in the working of the life force, and you have a feeling of unwellness and you are unhappy.
People are generally asked to do a certain sadhana, and as part of that go somewhere, visit this or that temple, or climb such and such a mountain. But what is really the working principle is the life force. And when you treat the life force as God itself, there cannot be consciousness without life force. So consciousness and life force are two components, inextricably woven together, of one principle. But consciousness is only the witnessing principle or the static aspect; the dynamic aspect or the working principle is the life force. Once you consider that life force as God itself, and that no other God exists, then you raise the life force to a status enabling it, together with consciousness, to give you an understanding of the working of the whole principle. But if you demote that life principle to mere self-identification with the body, then the life principle is not given the status which enables it to unfold itself. It depends entirely on you. If I identify this life principle with my body, then I make it work according to the body. But if I raise it to a godly status, and treat it as such, then that life principle will unfold itself and give me the necessary spiritual knowledge.
Earlier I had asked, what is mind? Mind is only the outflow in words of this life principle, the prana. And how does the mind work? The mind is limited to the conditioning to which it has been exposed; therefore, the mind cannot go beyond the specific molding it has undergone in the individual. Thus, the working of the mind differs from case to case. And about this prana, you have been asked to pray to such and such a God. So what does one really have in mind? Only the words, the designation, allotted to that God. But one forgets the principle and sticks merely to the words. But without the life force and consciousness, the words themselves would not come. Therefore, instead of identifying oneself with, and praying to, some word which has been given to denote the life principle, pray to that life principle itself.
Earlier I had quoted a couplet in Marathi, which says that that which is one’s constant companion every moment of the day is the consciousness. Can anyone think of a single moment without this consciousness? So this is our friend which is with us for twenty-four hours a day. So pray to that constant companion of yours and not to some imaginary, conceptual God.
In my own case, with the life force not working so smoothly, what can anybody’s medicine do? All that it can do is to try to make that life force work more smoothly. Now, going back to that old couplet, which says that this compan- ion of mine—friend, philosopher and guide—who takes me by the hand every moment of my existence is this very life force. Other than God, what companion can it be, although the one who wrote it is probably thinking in terms of some conceptual God. Think for yourself: Who is this God who is your companion every moment of your existence? What can it be other than this life force and the consciousness?
People pray to God and when they think they do so, what are they praying to? Is it some idol, made of a material—maybe gold, maybe silver, maybe something else? But have you come across anyone praying to an idol representing the life force? This physical body, this apparatus, is generally regarded very highly. The doctors will say, anyone will say, that this physical body is a marvel. But can the body, however good, however pure, be as pure as the life force? If you make a friend of this life force—-that is, if you identify yourself not with the body but with this life force—then will one need help from any other source; that is, from any source other than the life force? Is there anything more essential than this life force? If you have a choice by which you could have the life force or anything else, is there anything that you would give preference over the life force?
Vs Well, the making of that choice itself would depend upon the presence of the life force anyway.
M: That is the point I am trying to make. That is why this constant companion is this life force, without which nothing can happen. When the life force comes into contact with the consciousness, this combination assumes the status of the highest God. That is, for one who has identified himself not with the body, but with this life force, can there be the need for anything else from any source? Has anyone been advising people along those lines? The life force plus consciousness—which has assumed any number of forms—is that meant for any one particular form or is it for the total manifestation, the totality of sentient beings? In other words, I don’t have the life force, but the life force has this one form along with millions of others. Has anyone made any capital of any kind in order to pray to and please this life force? You don’t need anything to pray to this life force. This principle has, deliberately or otherwise, generally been kept a secret from people who seek spiritual knowledge.
For all these forty odd years, I have been giving attention to individual persons. But now I have not got the time, the strength or the stamina to deal with particular individuals; I will only talk generally and people can make the best of whatever they hear. If someone does not like it, he can go.
V: My feeling is that if we hear him generally, all these niggardly little personal problems will take care of themselves anyhow.
M: Previously, I asked, if there were a choice: would a husband prefer his life force to his wife; would a wife prefer her life force to her husband? So far we have been using the expression “praying to the life force”; so I ask can anyone live without the vise—now I am deliberately using the word y i se ”—of the companionship of the life force? I am employing the word in this way: the life force is the yoking, like of a bullock or a horse. In the absence of this joining with the life force, can anyone act at all in any way? If I decide to go somewhere, but my life force is not functioning too well, and therefore I am ill, then will I be able to go even with all the determination in the world? So, ultimately, even though I may think I am acting or doing something, it is the life force within which is driving me to, or preventing me from, doing something.
Millions (of rupees) have been spent in preparing an idol of gold, or whatever, the most precious metal; but if I don’t have the life force, does it matter to me whether the idol is made of earth or gold? Or that there is even an idol at all? So long as the life force is there, whether in a fit working condition or not, whether well or unwell, the body is alive. But once the life force leaves, the person is dead; therefore everything depends on the life force.
Would you like to ask some questions? Who is eligible to ask questions? It is that one who has made deep friendship with this life force and this consciousness, who realizes the importance of the life force to the extent that he loves the life force as himself and not his identification with the body. Someone who has this love and has not identified himself with the body, he has conquered everything, and such a person only is eligible to ask questions. The union with this life force is in no way different from the love for the life force, the companionship with the life force; that is, this unity is love. Life force, love and consciousness are all one in essence. By all means, use your body to work in the world but understand what it is. The body is only an instrument to be used: you are not the body. You are the everlasting, timeless, spaceless principle which gives sentience to this body. This is the most secret but the simplest principle as far as spiritual knowledge is concerned.
I will give you a specific instance. In one who has understood the principle and is one with the life force, when this life force is ready to leave the body, what will be his reaction? Apparently, that will be the moment of highest ecstasy. Why is this? Because what is manifest is now going to be unmanifest.
V: What was said is to happen in the case of a jnani at the moment of death. However, it should really happen in the present moment when life is there, and not only at the moment of death.
M: That is extraordinarily difficult because a very slight identification with the body remains; it is extremely hard to get rid of that remnant of identification.
Words are used only as a means of communication at any particular moment. Time, space, whatever objects in the manifestation—are they not there because of the same principle? Manifestation is possible only if the life force is there; then only is it sensorially perceptible. If the life force is not there, as far as that particular individual is concerned, there is no manifestation, there is no earth, there is no love, there is nothing. The concepts we have carefully accumulated over a period of time will all be useless. It is this life force’s conscious presence, without any form, which has been called God in various names. We have to repeat the fact to ourselves that I am not the body but the life force and consciousness; that is my nature. In order to know that, one does not have to practice anything; it is there, as an innate fact. Only after this consciousness has come upon me, I am aware of various kinds of needs and wishes and ambitions, happiness and unhappiness, pain and lack of pain; everything is only subsequent to the appearance of this consciousness. Before that, there was nothing.
The gentleman says he has come here to seek exactly what I am talking about. Of course, who will come for any other purpose to me? Self-identification—that is, identification with the body—is so powerful that I wonder how much of what I say will have any effect. And I do not blame you either. There is no limit to the extent of worldly knowledge that can be acquired. But all that is traditional knowledge which refers only to the world. To collect all that knowledge which has come down from the ages, one forgets who or what is really at the root of all this knowledge—that principle because of which knowledge of any kind can be acquired.
If one travels in the world, one must have all kinds of knowledge to make that travel pleasant and successful. But if one is not a traveller but merely a witness of the travel that takes place, why do I need knowledge of any kind? The physical construct which has been created as a protection for the life force, one accepts that as oneself. That is the whole difficulty. Knowledge in the world is helpful only to the traveller. If there is any unworldly knowledge, it must be of one’s true nature. Coming to the theoretical knowledge that I am Brahman is possible only if one would stick to the much easier and simpler practice of making friendship with this life force itself. In saying I am the life force, progress would be very much faster.
Falls, accidents happen, bodies get crushed, there is loss of life and limb, but the life force is unaffected. Whoever has made this world and is concerned with its working is not worried about it, because there are innumerable forms which are ever created for the life force to work in. So if a few of them get crushed, the creator is not worried, [laughter]
V: Are pranayama and this making friendship with the life force the same thing?
M: Pranayama is a practice for achieving this goal. The son of a guru is not a proper son if he gives more importance to what somebody else says than what his own father says. In coming here, are you not belittling the status and importance of your own guru?
V: Is he angry about it?
I: Not angry but clarifying the situation. If a pupil considers God to be higher than his guru, then again he is not a proper pupil, not a proper seeker.
V: Who is conscious of this fear of death?
Second Visitor: The thoughts.
M: Which are? Who understands the process of thought?
V: The mind.
M: Who understands the mind? What is there prior to mind?
V: I don’t know. There must be something, because it is holding the thoughts.
M: Yes, therefore I am asking you, what is it? That there is something, when do you have to say it? You know there is something, but you do not know what it is. You are able to say this or anything else only when you have the sense that you are, the consciousness that you exist. So stick to that—that consciousness which tells you that you are. Give up your identity with the body and concentrate your thoughts on the self, that consciousness which gives sentience to the body.
V: He means we are not body and mind?
M: Who has heard this, your saying that you are not the body? You have said that you are not the body, so who is it that has heard this and understood it?
V: I have heard it but not understood it.
M: You say, I have heard it, but who is this “I”? Who is it that has heard this?
V: Here, I am, sitting.
M: Now you are sitting here, you know that you are sitting here; so who or what principle is it that knows and understands you are sitting here? For a confirmed fact, there is no doubt about it. The answer is that the ego is this identification with your body, but I want to go prior to that.
V: How can I lose the identification with my body and mind?
M: What is the principle because of which you know that you exist and because of which you see the body and the world? What is it in the absence of which you would not be able to see your body and the world outside?
V: But I am still doing it here.
M: I will not insult your guru, because this is the basic question. And the answer to this question must come from your guru. Put this question to him.
V: It must come from the guru or must it come out from myself?
M: Whatever the guru will tell you is the same as that which comes out of your own self. That which you are seeking within you is the same as your guru.
V: It means the guru and myself is existence itself?
M: The difficulty with you is that you consider yourself as your body. And you consider the guru’s body as guru.
V: That depends on my eyes, I can see only the outside.
M: Unless you recognize and understand that principle which enables you to see the world, how can you understand anything? It is the same basic question. Giving you the answer will mean insulting your guru, which I do not intend to do.
V: Did Maharaj get the answer from his guru?
M: Do I have to give you the answer to the question whether my mother had a husband? How are you concerned? [laughter] You can’t get knowledge by seeking answers to such questions.
What equipment you are having is that prana. Upasana means worship, worship of prana. For doing that, what equipment do you possess? It is prana itself. Along with prana, there is that knowledge “I am” or the consciousness. These two things are available to you to do anything. Nothing more than that.
V: Wdiat I understood was that we honor, we worship that life force by giving attention to the consciousness.
M: That is OK, that is the way. “I”-consciousness or that knowledge “I am” is “Great God,” the Ishwara principle. And that prana, vital force, is Great Power or Great Energy, the kinetic principle without which there cannot be consciousness. Then that knowledge “I am” or the consciousness is the most needed, the most coveted thing. Everybody wants to sustain that; hence, all the efforts. That is the first thing. Along with that, you need so many other things. But the first requirement is that consciousness itself, the self-love. As long as you don’t have the understanding of what you are, all the efforts and trouble are inevitable; they are automatically there. But once you get an inkling of what it is that you really are, there is no need for any effort, or for any trouble to arise.
In the earlier stages, there is self-love, but that love is formless. In the later stages, even that self-love goes. Then witnessing occurs of the self-love being absent. I am describing my state; it is something like a hollow stick, a hollow tube. No self-love being present, the love for existence has vanished; yet existence is there and activities are taking place. Like Brahma, Vishnu, or Ishwara, I have not taken any pose or stance, because there is no material to support it.
People come here and some do not understand; they argue, quarrel with me, fight me. To them, I say, OK, you are right, you need not attend anymore because you cannot understand me. The reason for that is your identification with the body, which you are unable to let go of. People will talk to me; they will do so only when something occurs to them: some concept occurs and the words start flowing. So whatever question someone poses depends upon what occurs to him at that moment. That person will identify himself with the body; he has formed the conviction that he is the body, and from that standpoint he is asking his question. But should I consider you to be a body while I am talking to you? How is that possible? So the questioner is full of color and design, whereas the one who replies has neither. How can they possibly agree? How can the questions and replies ever relate to each other?
July 12, 1980