2. AT THE HIGHEST LEVEL NOTHING IS; AT THE WORLDLY LEVEL EVERYTHING IS


VISITOR : Forgive me for going back to what Maharaj said yesterday, because I forgot. I asked him about the presence of the guru, and he said there is something saying "guru-guru-guru." MAHARAJ : Oh yes, guru means that “I-am-ness” itself, which always reminds you “I am,” “I am.” “I am” - that is guru-guru-guru, like the sound of a motorcar starting. It is a continuous reminder that you are

For this trifling talk, why are you using this equipment? [referring to the tape recorder] V : Because the trifling talk takes us back all the time to that which is not trifling

M : Just so

V : Can I ask a question? M : Of course

V : This morning Maharaj said this mystery of the knower and the known should be followed up. The known is not really known by a knower. The known is known because its perceptions, thoughts, feelings, are movements in consciousness, and they are known because of their appearance in the light of consciousness. Is that correct ? M : It is just like that. A jnani is the most stupid...(He is not concerned with knowing in the conventional sense.) When this waking state, this consciousness, appears, then only everything appears. Prior to that, where is the question of knowledge, ignorance, or jnana ? V : But deep sleep. is that really a state? M : Yes, the integral combination of Waking state, deep sleep and the dream state comprises “I am.” V : But in deep sleep, there is no time

M : Time is there, only the witnessing of time is not there

V : How can there be time if there is no witnessing? M : Your watch did the witnessing job and told you that you were asleep for eight hours

V : So witnessing comes afterwards? M : Agreed! V : In the deep sleep itself, there is no time

M : The one that tells you later, what is he like before telling you? V : Formless

M : When it is formless, when the form is not available, the consciousness “I am” is not there either

V : So in deep sleep, there is no “I am.” M : No. But the witnessing of deep sleep does happen. The principle that witnesses the deep sleep does not sleep

V : I don't understand that something can be timeless and yet exist - the deep sleep

M : You go into a very deep samadhi, then you will realize that. If you want to meet a state of nothingness, you yourself must also go into a state of nothingness

V : That is what I call “omnipresence,” or Presence

M : “I-am-ness" is Presence. That “I-am-ness" presence should not be there

The non-“I am-ness”only can meet that nothingness

V : Still there is...I have no word for it. Presence. There is no thought, no feeling. But there is..

M : No thought. no feeling

V : I used to go into samadhis which were just like deep sleep. In three hours or so. I noticed that many things had happened (in my immediate environment)

But my guru was very unhappy with that. He said. you must not do that

M : Samadhi and the experiencer of samadhi. did you get acquainted with both aspects - samadhi and the one who enjoyed samadhi? V : Now, so many years later, I say they are identical

M : O. K., the experiencer and the experience are one and the same

V : But it cannot be remembered

M : It is not to be memorized; it cannot be grasped by memory. The manifest dynamic, fluid Brahman cannot be caught in any words

V : Can you say that everything, even ignorance and pain, is a pointer to the Ultimate? M : When you are completely depersonified, you are no more an individual, then whatever is, is an embellishment or a decoration or a puja to the Parabrahman. But so long as you are wrapped up egoistically through some words, no puja can happen

V : Knowledge with a capital K. the ultimate knowledge..

M : The Absolute? V : Yes, knowingness. I don't know how to call it..

M : But that is no knowingness...In the Absolute, there is no knowingness. Knowingness is only in the past

V : Here we face the difficulty of words

M : You better not call it knowledge

V : Pure consciousness

M : In that state, there is no knowingness

V : But no unconsciousness either. It is not possible

M : It is unconscious

V : From the point of view of the mind

M : Yes, because you are...the indication is given with reference to consciousness. That is why you call it “no consciousness.” V : Yes. But in reality, from its own point of view..

M : You are talking of the Absolute. There is no “I-am-ness.” V : I don't know how to call it..

M : Call it Absolute. The moment you say "knowledge," the quality comes in

V : I don't mean that

M : You are talking of the nirguna state? V : I don't know this Sanskrit term

M : Guna means “I-am-ness.” : and nirguna means “No-I-am-ness.” V : “I am”disappears in the Absolute

M : Yes, a non-knowing state

V : A non-knowing state...that knows! [laughter] M : Knowingness appears on the non-knowing state

V : Yes, the relative beingness is known, is recorded in the Absolute

M : Beingness comes on the background of the Absolute. So? V : So it is known...in the Absolute. Beingness is known as an object

M : If knowingness is not known, who would call it "knowingness"? V : There is nobody to call it anything

M : That is the reply! V : So, have I understood it right this morning: Maharaj advises us to find out who is the witness in deep sleep ? M : All these wordy statements are just to please somebody. Actually there is no substance in all this

V : So. no advice ? M : The manifest dynamic nature, don't stamp it with words! just be. Don't conceptualize. Now everybody is weighed down by words. Suppose a child is there, and the child is dead. Whatever that principle, that dynamic principle has left the body. No, you cannot say what that dynamic principle is. It has no name now. Because of this association with the body. you have tried to capture it with words

V : So words are the only problem

M : Yes. The whole problem is with the words. Since that principle which has quit the body is now freed from the body, you cannot capture it through words. The dynamic beingness principle, because of its association with the body, embracing a certain form and certain words and concepts, is suffering

Without that - without form, and without words - how can it suffer ? V : All this stops immediately when you see it as a puja to the Ultimate

M : That means all this wordy business stops. You may understand it that way. Once you understand that you are not the body nor that you are wrapped up in name and form, and that you are this manifest Brahman only, you are free

V : Even the idea “I am not free” is part of the puja

M : What do you mean by “puja” ? Puja is a process or an aid to propitiate somebody

V : Well. O.K. Would you call it darishma? M : Call it whatever you like. It is an expression of it

V : It is consciousness playing with its own

M : Yes

[To a newly arrived visitor] If you are going to sit here, you must ask questions. If you are not going to ask questions, take the rearmost seat

V : If you come here. you must stick out your neck. Otherwise, it is no use (being here)

M : If you enter the arena. you must fight with questions

SECOND VISITOR : Of course, of course

M : [pointing to a third visitor] For years he has been trying to assimilate knowledge, but he has not got an iota of knowledge. What knowledge did you get? V : The ignorant man has not got any knowledge and the sage has not got knowledge. Then what is the difference? M : The ignorant one has to acquire knowledge, because knowledge is valid for the ignorant. For the jnani, there is no sense of knowledge because he dismisses knowledge as unreal. Therefore, he does not entertain knowledge

That is why he has no knowledge

V : In reality nobody can have knowledge, nobody can have anything

M : In reality nobody can avoid knowledge. Nobody means “who”? V : This is the “proprietor.” M : "Nobody" means the one who could refer to "whom”? V : This is the proprietor whom you cannot know. Even the proprietor goes at once... So I could not be the owner of knowledge for two reasons. First you cannot own any thought... Secondly, the proprietor does not live longer than one or two seconds. He also is a thought

M : This is all right on the worldly level, but, truthfully. nothing is. At the highest level, in reality, nothing is. At the worldly level, everything is

V : Does this mean everything is a form of consciousness? M : Whatever is, is an expression of consciousness only. If consciousness is not there, the expression of consciousness is not there either. Therefore, nothing is. And this consciousness is an uncalled-for concept; it has appeared spontaneously

V : So once one has heard the truth, there really is only one obstacle, to think that can one reach it when one actually can't

M : After one has got the truth, there is only one obstacle..

V : It appears that you have to reach it to attain it

M : 'When you have heard the truth, it still needs to be emulated in order to be reached

V : Your attempt to understand it, that is the one obstacle. “How ?” M : Because the truth has no form, no name. So how can it be understood? V : But that is something one continues to try for a long period

M : In the process of trying to understand, you get purified and the process subsides. So long as the food body essence is available, this consciousness endures. When the consciousness quits the body, that knowingness is no longer there. There remains only the universal consciousness without the knowingness, the non-knowingness state or anything else

Then in that state there is no question of manifest or unmanifest. That comes only with the presence of consciousness. So long as the association with the body essence is there, this guna, this state of “I-am-ness” or beingness, is available. But once this food essence is gone, that “I-am-ness" state is also gone

This guna, this consciousness, depends entirely on the food body essence. Once the latter is exhausted or no longer available, this consciousness or this guna is also not there. To repeat, the life force, the touch of “I-am-ness" or this guna, is not there in the absence of the food body essence, whether it concerns an ant or an elephant

All the stories of reincarnation, rebirth, are mere stories meant for the ignorant masses

V : The past is always projected from this moment? M : Whatever has happened. that is “the past.” V : But We can never touch the past; we are only now. So we cannot touch anything which is not now. So, maybe, there is no such thing as the past

M : What have you to say...? V : So if there is no past, there is no bondage

M : But who says that it cannot be touched, the past? V : I say so

M : But who is the one who said “I” ? This means that by the word “I,” that chetana, that manifest, dynamic principle caught itself in that word “I”. If that dynamic, manifest principle does not get caught up in the concept, then it has no birth and no death

V : Is it possible, when you look for what you are, that you identify yourself not with consciousness, but that you misapprehend it? Could it be that when you look for yourself, you take this consciousness Maharaj is talking about for that which you are, that you get it mixed up? SECOND VISITOR : You mistake consciousness for the Ultimate

M : Yes. that consciousness is the prerequisite for anything. Without the consciousness, you cannot even do that search, you cannot look inward

Please proceed with the question

V : That is all. But when you make this mistake, when you identify yourself with consciousness, is it still some kind of feeling or experience ? M : You are consciousness. Where is the question of your merging with the consciousness ? Your consciousness means “you are.” “You-are-ness” and consciousness are not separate. The “you are” state itself is the consciousness

Can you follow me? You know you are, without the words you are. That itself is the Consciousness

V : Can this consciousness exist without forms? M : This consciousness cannot know itself in the absence of a form, of food body essence. Body is a form. For example, you are detecting some bad smell

There must be something from which the bad smell emanates. So something must be present. Likewise, to have this touch of “I-am-ness.” something must be there. And what is that something? Body, food essence. This body must be there, which is food essence. Storage of food essence is the body

[After a long pause] I had high expectations in you, that you would initiate some interesting talks. If nobody talks, I will close the session and send people home

V : I have done some homework for questions. I had to jot them down

because when I sit here all my questions vanish. When I go home, the questions come back

You said one must always remember “I am.” M : Is it necessary that you should remember that you are? Spontaneously you know and remember that you are. That is why you have come here, have you not? Because you are. Stay put there

Currently, you are not yet that knowledgeable to be able to realize the happiness that goes with that state. You have yet to evolve

V : I don't get it

M : You are not mature enough yet. And really... when you finally understand, you will realize that all this, whatever you have understood, is not the truth

V : That is what I realize in my mind

M : What can the mind understand? Can the mind have any wisdom? Whatever passing show it observes, that is the mind. Whatever is read, whatever is heard, that again flows out - that is the mind. Whatever earlier impressions entered, when they flow out, the flowing out is the mind

V : In a way, I don't want to ask questions, because if I put a clever question and I get a clever answer in return. I become more and more clever and it is no use

M : You ask a clever question and you get a clever reply. Is that what you mean? V : Yes. This makes me even more clever, and then I start... It is no use, Therefore, I don't want to ask questions

M : So you don't want to become clever? The state you want is noncleverness

Is it something like that? V : I may become very clever. but it does not help. It does not make me happy

M : It is of no use. But who observes it? Who is saying this? Who has made all the observations? V : The witness? M : I would like to know who is that witness and witness of what? V : Well. I can say I am the witness... I am not sure

M : And witness what? V : Intelligence, the world, everything, all that is manifested

M : How long are you going to be at that post of Witnessing? How long are you in a witnessing position? It is the knowingness that is the trouble, the source of all troubles. In the absence of knowingness, of that consciousness, where is the question of misery

pain or pleasure? V : Nowhere

M : Now you know it, you can go home; you've got it

V : But I don't feel it, I don't experience it like that. I can explain everything most cleverly, but it still does not work, even for myself

M : So long as beingness, “I-am-ness” is there, (why worry about) utility or no utility. In the absence of consciousness. there is no question of utility or no utility

V : Why utility? M : Usefulness or no usefulness

V : Does it mean losing the consciousness? M : Did you ever catch hold of consciousness, and made it your own, your property? M : Then keep quiet

It (consciousness) has come spontaneously

How is it that everyone has suddenly gone into silence? V : Is it not what he wants? [laughter] SECOND VISITOR : Can we get some advice for not getting things mixed up? Sometimes I take this as "I am," other times I take that as "I am." Can Maharaj give some advice to ensure we don't mistakenly hold something for “I am”? M : Don't say I am this, I am that. Just hold on to yourself, you are. Just be

Just be "you are." Do you follow? V : Yes, but sometimes I imagine that I experience “I am.” Sometimes, not always

M : Every moment you are experiencing “I am.” Are you not experiencing yourself right now? You are? V : As a body, yes

M : You know you are. Aren't you? V : Yes, as a body, as a mind. I am

M : Prior to body, and prior to mind, are you not there? V : I don't know

M : Are you or are you not? Who recognizes the mind? You recognize the mind. So you are..

V : Separated

M : Recognizing the mind, you are apart from the mind, aren't you? V : Yes

M : You recognize the body. So you are apart from the body. You exist prior to body, separate from the body and separate from the mind. do you not? Do you understand? V : I understand

V : Is that the same as when you meditate and you keep repeating it [the mantra] in your head? M : Suppose you meditate, meditate on the atman or something, be there! Recede ! Whatever you meditate on, you are not that! Whatever you observe, you are not that. So in this way, reject everything whatever you observe, and finally settle down where no more observation is

V : I could meditate only very little through fear arising..

M : You are not the fear! You observed the fear, did you not? You acknowledge it because you accept it. Recede from that. You are not that. Get back! V : But the more I get back, the more fear comes

M : But still you have to get back. You are the rearmost background principle

V : It is hard to be convinced of that when you are meditating and the fear comes; it is hard to remember

M : Let the fear come! It does not matter if you are overwhelmed by fear and you are dead - whatever that is. Caught in the fear, let it be dead. But you are still in the background. let it [the fear] appear to you

V : Then when it feels to me that I am dying. is that no problem? M : Then let yourself die. That which is caught by the fear will die, but you won't die. You will be really immortal

V : I know, I have experienced it many times

I : You survived, didn't you? So then? V : The trouble is endless; the fear and the trouble are endless

M : Everything will go but you will not go. you will not die

V : I will try again

M : What are you going to do now? V : Meditate

M : When you say you are going into meditation, on what do you meditate? V : I will sit and just watch what comes up, and then I keep telling myself: “That's something, that's something...” M : That is all, nothing else

V : And I will come here everyday, of course

M : For four. five days! V : What do you mean. four or five days? M : You can come here four or five days

V : Not longer? M : There is no accommodation for newcomers. By all means, in order to thoroughly understand you can come. But then you should go

V : Understanding itself is not enough for me

M : Then what else you want? V : Become more realized...[giggling] M : Realized? Whose realization? Somebody else's or yours? Your selfrealization, would it be like this... [makes gesture] V : What do you mean by “like this”? I have not understood the question

M : Listen to my talks thoroughly for four or five days, and then go and imbibe them

V : I am fully aware of the question I am going to put, but it cannot be grasped by the mind or the buddhi [intellect]

Somebody is realizing... the unmanifest... but there is nothing to realize... it is there for ever. Time and space are not binding upon it. Correct? M : Have you realized that? Is it your experience? V : No

M : Then don't ask me about somebody else. This "you-are-ness" does not occur to you. You are. Is it time-bound or is it beyond time? You now know that you were not. This “I-am-ness” was not: it has come afterwards. “I-am-ness” has come at a certain time. You know you are. Prior to that, this “you-are-ness" was not. So how can you say this “you-are-ness” is beyond time? It is time-bound. It has appeared: therefore, it must disappear

V : [Long and unintelligible statement about living the "unmanifest state."] M : All this talk is merely verbal acrobaties. I want to know: What is this “you are” medicine? Why are you? What are you? Due to what are you? In the absence of that medicine “you are,” what are you? Before understanding this "you are" medicine and dismissing it, you are talking about a state without "you are" medicine. Understand what it is! My state is: I am, without parents. I am the Unborn. Similarly, I understand you as such only. You are also the Unborn, without parents. I have been telling you again and again: that you exist is due to that “you are” medicine. It has a certain period of time. Again and again I have been telling you that, and still you are putting the same basic question

Someone asked me a queer question: I am responsible for the birth of fifty children. Due to what are they born? That was his question. Suppose your father asked such a silly question of somebody else? All this talking about the manifest and unmanifest is mere talk for the sake of entertainment. First find out: What is this medicine. “you are” ? Due to what ? When you recognize and transcend that, you are a Mahatma, and people will come and talk to you. Have you understood this principle “I am”? When spiritually experienced people come here, they enter into a dialogue just for entertainment. In the true state nothing is. All this spiritual talk is spiritual jargon. You can talk in the world to the ignorant masses; you can convey any number of concepts to them. Let me give you an example: In certain parts of our country, when a person is dead, his ornaments are given to a barber, because from the barber they will go to the dead person. That is the concept

And such concepts are all for the ignorant people. But you can't very well tell such stories here, when discussing profound spiritual matters. Ultimately, what are these spiritual talks? They are meant for so long as ignorance prevails. To remove the ignorance, so-called knowledge is necessary. The knowledge removes the ignorance and then itself also goes: both knowledge and ignorance are thrown overboard. What remains is the Absolute

Take for example the questions of rebirth and reincarnation. In this manifest play of the five elements, there is no entity as such, no individual or personality

Out of the five-elemental play, when the quintessence of that play in the form of the food essence appeared in a certain form, the moment is there, that is the normal ignorant personality

So long as that food essence body is available with that vital breath, the life force is there. That is the birth. When the body is not available, we call it death

Then again a rebirth! Rebirth of what? Of the five-elemental play ! There is no birth of a certain personality, of this or that fellow. The question does not even arise

V : When the body dies. it means there is no pain after death of the body

M : What do you mean by death of the body? Does the body die? Can this die [again referring to his cigarette lighter] ? V : But that is not a living thing ! M : If you make a flame, it is full of life and fire. When the vital breath quits the body, this quality of "I-am-ness" also disappears. That is where the air becomes manifest, it merges with the universal air. This “I-am-ness.” the consciousness, also merges with the universal consciousness. In that state, there is no knowingness and the body becomes one with the five elements. Where is the death? When the flame is extinguished, would you call it death? In other words, when this is completely consumed, is it not death? You may call it death also

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