
VISITOR: What is the difference between physical suffering and psychological suffering?
MAHARAJ: When there is disorder in the body, suffering is physical; but when there is disturbance due to thoughts and concepts, the suffering is psychological. Have you any idea when all this began?
V: I do not know.
M: It is spontaneous and it is inside. But how and when was registration made of the first day of life?
V: From death, birth took place; prior to that there was no consciousness.
M: To what was this title of birth given? Just look into that, what is really born?
V: A concept is born.
M: Even to say that a concept is born, is not the full truth. What did actually happen?
V: Time and space appeared.
M: You will have to do plenty of dhyana-yoga to come up with a correct reply. There are any number of Upanishads and yogas like hatha-yoga, Patanjali yoga, and others. But I know only atma-yoga, which is Self-knowledge and nothing else.
Out of a common heap of wheat, many types of edibles are prepared, using different methods. In the same way, there are many systems of spirituality. I am not interested in nibbling at the various delicacies—methods and techniques—but only in the main course, which is the primordial Source of all existence.
How and why did the state of my beingness, my exis- tence, and the entire manifestation arise and out of what? In that original source, there is no feeling of my presence. To that ultimate source, how did the state of existence resulting in differentiation (duality) happen?
The Upanishads and various systems of yoga are conceptual fantasies. I did not go into all these at all. I inquired only about my “non-beingness” and beingness, and how and why they did come about.
V: That I am born is itself. . .
M: But this is a concept which you have accepted. It is a hearsay.
V: Every moment we are born.
M: Yes, every moment births take place. But what is that material which is born?
V: Whatever that maybe?
M: On the “non-beingness” beingness has appeared; and in the beingness, thousands of births and live forms are created within a moment.
V: But the background of all this is “nothingness” only.
M: There should also be a knower of this “nothingness,” and this knower is “nothingness,” too! In the “non-beingness,” how could that be expressed and who would? In that state, there is no subject and no object, and it is called nirvishaya. But in the beingness state, both subject and object are there, hence it is called savishaya.
Have you understood that Pantanjali yoga deals with duality? Have you studied the yoga? Does it deal with yoking' or unyoking?
V: I have read a little. The yoga deals with duality.
M: Out of what did Patanjali create duality? When he established duality, what did he divide? Whatever he divided, was it not in the realm of beingness—in the sphere of subject-object?
V: The moment one tries to divide something, it becomes “objective.”
M: But the ultimate principle is prior to the sphere of subject-object. I would like to know how you divide that state.
On the state of “non-beingness,” the beingness appeared together with manifestation, creating a feeling as if “J am.” Who that is, is not important; only “I am” is important.
We talked about duality. Did it begin with the appearance of beingness over “non-beingness” or has it developed later? It is simple. When the beingness—that is, the “I-am-ness” is felt, it is obvious that Quality.?has begun. Later, the being- ness manifests as multiplicity, functioning as it does through innumerable forms. The initial humming of the beingness as “I am, I am” is the duality. But who accepts the duality? The “non-beingness” accepts duality with the beingness. The Absolute “non-being” state, by assuming the being state, becomes dual in manifestation.
Words create duality between us. Two persons are sitting quietly and so there is no quarrel. But the moment they start talking, duality begins.
When the “non-being” state expresses objectivity’ through the being state, the latter is called maya, the female aspect, while the “non-being” state is considered the male aspect. Therefore, the functioning of the manifest universe is called the play of prakriti and purusha—that is, the female and male aspects.
V: I was trying to follow a path through which this beingness could experience the “non-beingness,” which amounts to the manifest experiencing the Unmanifest. Right from the start we must understand its impossibility.
M: I have been telling you the same thing. You should do plenty of deep meditation. The beingness should totally merge in the “non-being” state. Every day I get rid of my stress and strain when going into deep sleep. In this way, I forget myself, undergoing oblivion and relaxation. Thus, the beingness should be lost in the “non-beingness.”
When the dhyana-yoga is done correctly, the beingness dissolves gradually into “non-beingness.” In the intermediate state between deep sleep and waking, a dream vista presents itself. Similarly, in deep meditation, all the necessary wisdom is revealed to you. After understanding all this and realizing that the manifest world is unreal, do you still consider yourself a personality? The beingness state is the manifest state. It is not individualistic; it is made up of the five elements, three gunas, and prakriti-purush—the female and male principle. The beingness later merges into “non-beingness.”
That is why I say my process is atma-yoga, which means abidance in the Self. When the “non-being” state became the being state, the world, along with so many things, came into existence. As per my guru’s directive, I became one with the beingness. Beingness means having the vision that one is the entire dynamic universe. When one transcends individuality, one is the manifest beingness only. In this process the Unmanifest reveals itself.
V: This is what Maharaj calls meditation; that is, to remain in the state of beingness.
M: There is no creator and nobody created me.
V: The creator is already the manifest. First we need the sense of being before we become the creator.
M: The creation takes place through his mind and concepts. Through the humming in his mind, his world is created. Even if you are alone, your mental blabbering and chattering go on.
V: Also, the mind is created.
M: Yes, but when? When the “non-being” turns into being, then only the mind appears and functions. Only a very rare person, one in a million, will take the correct delivery of my talks.
V: Once the delivery is taken, there is no “person.”
M: There is no question of “yours” or “mine.” In the ocean of my manifestation, millions like you are crawling around, like waves and ripples.
V: With the exception of a guru, all others are ripples.
M: But what is a guru? Is he a material sustained on a piece of bread?
V: It is another word for the indescribable. My guru told me that first I as an individual should accept a guru, and that the guru would lead me initially to the manifest and then to the Unmanifest.
M: But the guru is the manifest state. If you accept individuality you will not make progress. You must identify with the manifest totality from the first moment of daybreak. The light of complete clarity is flooding all round. In this way you identify with the manifest as a whole, you are all-pervading. On the other hand, if you hold on to an individual entity, you cannot progress. Since death is inevitable, why should I not abide by the directive of my guru? By following him implicitly, effortlessly and spontaneously, the manifest becomes the unmanifest, beingness merges in the “non-beingness.” Unmanifest means total quietude and rest; then there is no birth and death, no coming and going.
Worldly activities are not possible without the humming of beingness. Individuality and manifestation are the outcome of the “non-being” state turning into beingness, like the waking of a person from deep slumber. A person in deep sleep and the person fully awake are one and the same. The one who sleeps is also the one who wakes up.
V: The waking state is another word for the world. M: Waking means total world manifestation.
V: When he is awakened, he always goes back to dualism.
M: Because I talk to you, you continue to talk to me. If you know any earnest person, bring him also here.
V: Very rarely I tell somebody to come here; once or twice, I have done so.
M: I like people who are eager to understand. I throw out anybody who likes only to argue for the sake of arguing.
I ever abide in the Unmanifest. But everything happens due to the power of yogamaya, the beingness, which is also the manifest state.
A great Marathi poet refers to the Unmanifest state in his poems, and brings out the following. “Just think of a barren woman, untouched by anyone, who conceives and delivers a child.” In the same manner, the yogamaya has delivered the manifest world. That is, the beingness, which is the outcome of the food-essence body, has projected this manifestation, and it is the image of my guru. The Unmanifest and the manifest, the yogamaya, can never be together.
V: A person translated the book I Am That into a foreign language, and he wants to give it the title of Tat-Tvam-Asi.
M: I do not like that. Either keep the title I Am That or none at all.
V: But Mr. Maurice Frydman had agreed.
M: I do not agree. And also do not dilute the contents of the book with your understanding, even though you may consider yourself a jnani. Do it the same way Frydman did; the exact and original text should be translated, with no modifications.
V: I now realize after meditation that the essence of your teachings is contained in I Am That.
M: If you want to realize the meaning of “I Am That,” go into deep meditation, but “you,” the manifest, should merge in “You,” the Unmanifest. That is the ultimate meaning. Whatever experience I get of the world and God, is not due to any favor or obligation of God but is entirely due to me, because of my state. If I were not, I would not have had the experience. I did prevail and do prevail always. Because of my beingness I experience the world. I now see clearly the oneness in the teachings of three seers or acharyas—Shankara, Madhava, and Ramanuja.
All the creations emanate from the moolamaya, the primary illusion and its secret humming. All words, talks and titles refer to those emanations. Similarly, all these images are the chatterings and expressions of somebody. The images are the products of the love-talk and coming together of two persons.
The state of beingness is termed as God. The godly state is the entire manifestation. It is my state in experiencing; it is duality. But my Unmanifest state is non-dual, and in that state there is no experiencing and manifestation. I, the Absolute, am not the state of being.
In spite of all the spiritual knowledge, you are not inclined to give up the experiences at the body-mind level. If you do not identify with the body-mind sense, you will transcend into the beingness first, and later, you will transcend even the beingness. However, you want to keep your individuality at the body-mind level as well as experience and be in both the beingness and “non-beingness states, which is impossible.
I, the Absolute, am the witness of my beingness, which is the total manifestation. This state is being glorified with very high attributes, such as God, Maheshwar etc. and worshipped by many people. To them, such a talk of mine may smack of mischief.
V: If I say “I am not That,” then there is also “I am That.”
M: Experience does not mean the experiencer.
V: The experiencer is experienced. The experiencer is an object, but is taken for a subject. I experience you and “I am” is an object, but is treated as a subject. Is it an illusion to see an object as subject?
M: If you say you talk, you are a liar. All this talk of yours is intellectual, only in reply to my talk. Do you directly practice what you talk?
V: It is practice. I have been looking everywhere for an “I.” Wherever I go in search of “me,” I am not there.
M: “I” is not the word “I,” it is everything.
V: “T” as an individual am not able to get to that everything.
M: I do not accuse anyone of being a personality. You identify yourself as an individual. Fear of death does not allow you to transcend into beingness.
V: Only the false wants to continue as the false.
M: “I,” the Absolute, am not the personal “I.” The personal “I” cannot tolerate the impersonal beingness and is afraid of death.
The factual, eternal “I,” the Absolute, has no fear of death.
That which you want to sustain, nourish and maintain by five-elemental stuff, is not you. Since you identify with something unreal, there is the fear of death.
“You,” the Absolute, are not the personal “you.” But for all the twenty-four hours, the personal entity “you” is watched, nourished and protected so that it may continue on and on. In short, you watch, nourish, protect and guard that which you are not in actuality.
V: When you meet a lion, you have two alternatives. Either you run away or you allow yourself to be eaten by it.
M: There is a third alternative. You threaten the lion since either way it is going to kill you. So why die like a coward out of fear? Attack it bravely and knock out some of its teeth.
One who is afraid of time becomes a prey of time. But time itself becomes a prey of that one who is not afraid of it.
One who transcends time, the beingness and its attributes, abides in the Absolute.
A jnani consumes time continuously, while all others are being devoured by it. A jnani is beyond time, (the five) elements, attributes and emotions.
V: We have to be very careful that we do not set up something as real that one intends to consume.
M: You presume to be a jnani but you are filled up with so much stuff. To fear time is like fearing an unborn child.
V: I did not state that I consider myself to be a jnani.
M: Time is the child of a barren woman. [Mabaraj is pointing to the visitor and another person.] Both of you are eminent personalities known for spirituality and you have come well armed to attack me. But I tell you, you cannot locate me.
Why am I not afraid of time? Because even the dissolution of this manifest universe, the Brahman, cannot destroy me. Prior to, during and after the dissolution, I, the Absolute, ever prevail, untouched, untainted and unchanged.
While dying, with what identity will you die? If you are certain of your death, why suffer a lowly death? Die nobly and honorably. Before death, be the Highest, be the Infinite, the Absolute.
January 14th 1980