
VISITOR : There are many people who purport to speak about truth. but only a few can be truly convincing. Why is that? MAHARAJ : Why do you ask me? How can I tell you? Somebody did not get a child. and you are asking me: "Why did I not get a child?" Such questions have no place or relevance here. This philosophy has already been explained to you. Why do you ask such questions? Ask only about your own self. To talk on this matter will be perfectly all right, but I have no energy to talk about random matters. Talk only about the self and I will come straight to the point and explain matters to you. But no other topics
Did you get knowledge from me or somebody else? V : I think mostly from my own self
M : If that is the case and you are getting knowledge through your own self, you should not have been coming here in the place
V : I did not mean to say all knowledge or the ultimate knowledge
INTERPRETER : Maharaj wants to know whatever you are getting here
What other masters have expounded knowledge to you? SECOND VISITOR : He wants to know what your sources are, what you have read, or from whom you have heard anything else
V : I started off with drugs, then I listened to Wolter Keer(1), and ended up listening to Maharaj
M : Since you said that your knowledge has sprouted in your own self, then don't come back tomorrow
V : Yes. but that was only knowledge of changes, not knowledge about the “I am” or the changeless
M : If you really did get the knowledge through you, why should I break my head over you? I : Don't ask any irrelevant questions, for Maharaj tires easily. Just because he is available to us does not mean we should fling any question at him
M : I have to suffer for all my talks, physically
V : Most of us come from Europe, where we don't have this guru-disciple tradition, and so we don't know how to behave
(1) A well-known Dutch author and lecturer on advaita Vedanta and the translator of I Am That into Dutch. He was a frequent questioner during the dialogues recorded in this present volume
M : Here. traditionally the guru is the highest God - the God of the gods
*** M : One who has understood this, that the consciousness which has been restricted to the body is in reality the limitless, universal consciousness, if he has accepted this with conviction, what more does he need? Whatever I say is from the point of view that I am without body-mind, and if you want to accept whatever I say from the point of view that you are bodymind, and expect to get something from it as a similar object, how can it be of use? I repeat: Whatever I say is from the conviction that I am without the body, that I am “no-body.” Therefore. if someone wants to understand that, but remains himself identified with the body. how can he ever hope to grasp what I am trying to convey? Any questions? Put them, but understand that we are speaking and asking on the basis that we do not have a body. There is a body and the body is suffering
But I know that I am not the body; I am the universal consciousness
I will not talk about what is being generally talked about elsewhere on the mistaken notion that they are discussing “spiritual knowledge.” I will only speak about one's own self. I will not fool people because I want them to come here and they come to me as guru
What is to be understood is that “I.” the self, comprises all things; this unity is to be understood thoroughly. Can there be anything else but one? There have been any number of avatars; they have gone but their bodies have merged into the five elements. Has anything changed? The self continues to be what it was for millions of years. Understand this as the pure mind, and anything else is tomfoolery
Consciousness within the body gets itself entangled in the various concepts which it has been given and which it has acquired and now considers as part of itself
In what I am saying now I give a picture of what you think yourselves to be
The jnani knows that this is totally untrue, and he knows the truth
V : Thought can never understand this. It takes a while before thoughts are completely exhausted and stop trying to understand. The understanding sinks in the moment the seeker disappears
M : Only when one is convinced about this, totally; there is nothing further that anyone can tell you and nothing further to be understood
Where is even the question of conviction? The body is going to disappear and mingle with the five elements, the breath will mingle with the air, and the consciousness with the universal consciousness: it is as simple as that
Be without the body first, and then whatever words emerge will be knowledge itself. They will not be coming from a particular apparatus; the words will be knowledge itself. The body is of the nature of food. and if there is an illness it is an illness on the body because there has been an imbalance in what constitutes the body. How am I concerned? This life force, the breath, and consciousness, they are like the sun and sunlight; there is so much unity in that, they are really one. So when one disappears, the other also goes. To start with, if you cannot consider yourself as consciousness, at least consider yourself the life force, because the two are one but in any case not the body. The life force and the consciousness are always free, but because they have associated themselves with the body the bondage has come about
Once you decide that you are not the body and this conviction grows, your body will be all the healthier for it
V : Is that the carrot to make the donkey run? M : That you will know best yourself
This consciousness that I am, I am the original. I am the landlord not the tenant. Take any concept that you like, but don't look to me for giving you any further concepts. You may adopt any concept that will make you happy, but remember it is still only a concept
Suppose you are sitting quietly. Suddenly one thought appears, and we are very, very unhappy. Then some other thought comes and the original thought and the unhappiness both disappear. So long as one depends on the mind, the mind will always make us unhappy
What is suffering really? Suffering is only something which has been engendered by a thought or a word - the mind. If that does not arise. where is the question of unhappiness? Whatever knowledge I give is always free and open, but the one who receives it, if he does not keep himself open to receptivity. what can I do? On this point, are there any questions? Your speech - that breath of words, that breath of thought, that breath of it with the body or is it without the body? The speech is without the body, the mind is without the body, the life force is without the body, and whatever happens is through the effect of the life force. The life force signifies movement, consciousness is movement
Only when I interpret what is in the mind, do I become happy or unhappy
So long as the mind does not work and there is no interpretation, there is no question of being happy or unhappy. Whatever you consider as happiness or unhappiness, sin or merit, heaven or hell, all those depend entirely on the meaning of the words; and that is the word, that is the thought, and that is the mind
I repeat: One who has understood this. I will not have him here, but those who think they have understood and are still in the process of digesting it and come here with great zeal and sincerity, to them I will tell them in brief words what the position is and then send them out too
Unless there is consciousness, how can there be concepts of ether and atmosphere, the sky and space? The consciousness is always the prime factor
And the life force and this consciousness within the body are bound to disappear
The manner in which the subject is being discussed here, is it at all similar to that in which your guru was expounding the subject? V : Of course. that depends very much on who was there. Sometimes, the approach was more like this, other times more like that
M : Why do I talk in such a fashion? This could be misunderstood. I speak the way I like because I know that I am no body and no thing. Therefore, I come and feel obliged to speak
I am and I am not, and I am neither ! Neither the presence nor the absence, that is why I say whatever comes up. Anyone who is conscious of his presence, will not talk in such open fashion
I apperceived what is and I also apperceived what is not: and when both what is and what is not have disappeared then what remains is “I.” I am certainly not presence and not even the presence of the absence
All knowledge anyone, however great, can have is that knowledge which one has at that split second when he is not asleep and not even awake. He cannot say what sleep was, for in sleep he is not consciously present. All he can say is something when he is awake, when the consciousness is there
Take the case of a jnani; he does have jnana. But is he able to say from where his knowledge has arisen? Knowledge has arisen from a point where there was no knowledge. How did it arise? What is its nature? Those who have come here and have had knowledge, how will they be able to convey it to others? What really happens in the world is: somebody gathers a lot of material - somebody's judgment and somebody else's judgment... a number of judgments are collected - and the whole combination he considers the capital of his knowledge. And it is only that which he can distribute. They merely exchange views: Shankara said this, and Buddha said that, and somebody else says something else; in this fashion, they exchange views and call it jnana. But the one who passes on these opinions of others, when they gave these judgments was he there? Was it the state of affairs when one understood the presence of the other, and both understood each other's presence? If that was the case, then it is different
But merely parroting the opinions of others, that is not knowledge. Things that happened in the past, as well as judgments given in the past, are being exchanged among a group of people who then call that knowledge
That primary concept, which is “I love,” not only that I exist but I love, that is the basic concept which brings about the assumption of all other concepts by people
For years and years I may not know that I was going to be born. Even the day prior to the Conception, I did not know I was going to be conceived. And then, after nine months, the body is born and after a few months, when the consciousness is actively working. I realize that I am born
[To a particular visitor] I consider you a jnani and I want an answer from you: What was born and how was it born? That is, as far as you are concerned
V : Only the idea “I am.” M : Who told you about this? V : My parents. They told me I have a body, a character, and so on
M : That is all. Whatever knowledge you have is hearsay. That is my point
How can somebody who does not have knowledge of his true self be a guru? Only he can be a guru who has knowledge of his true nature. If one knew that he was going to be born, he would refuse. He would not have accepted the proposition that he should go in the food: Thank you, I'll pass, I don't want it
*** M : In that state which prevails after the dropping of the body, is there any memory? Conventionally or traditionally, people say there is still memory even after the body goes. I do not believe that, because there is no experience of it. So long as the body is there, the mind is there: and the mind creates an individually made memory pattern: therefore the individuality is there. When you are the manifest state, with the consciousness, there is no play of mind and therefore no individuality. You are the manifest only. So if at all thoughts occur, they will not be related to the individualistic idea that manifests about nature only
What about the sages. who are dead and gone? Whatever state they had prior to assuming a body, they have reverted to that original state. This knowingness, consciousness. “I-am-ness” comes only with the body that is given. When a jnani does not have a body. he does not need anything: he is Consciousness
I : In your country also there might be sages. So I said to Maharaj: The way we accept sages here with great reverence and awe is probably not customary there. There may be others - I don't really know. They have probably heard about sages like Ramana Maharshi because through Maharshi they came to know about the possibility of self-realization
M : A sage is one who has transcended individuality, personality, and abides in the manifest consciousness. So the yardstick is his abidance in consciousness
That manifest consciousness expresses itself through a particular body that is the sage. But that body has no individuality. Such entities only are true sages, being the background of manifest consciousness
V : Before coming to India, I had tried everywhere to get answers to my questions, but nobody would give them. I tried everyone, Catholics, Protestants, but no one could answer my fundamental questions
M : Why did they not answer? V : They did not know. For example, everybody was talking about the soul
So I said: What is this soul? Nobody knew. All these people were using the word, without explaining what it means
[The interpreter used the word atma for “soul” in his translation for Maharaj] Soul is not atma. Atma is impersonal, soul is a kind of spiritual personality
The soul is a mixture of atma and jiva
M : Do you understand what is the atma? V : That which remains when thought vanishes
M : And when the thought is there, what is it? V : When we are still
M : The atma conditioned, consciousness conditioned by thought
V : The atma is that which never changes, which all thoughts, fears and sense perceptions have in common
I : You said, when thoughts are not there. But when the thoughts are there? V : Atma is also there. It is that which all thoughts and feelings have in common. It is something which is present in every thought, every feeling, and every sense perception, which does not change
M : Whatever you are, that consciousness, the knowingness, that itself is the atma. When you understand that consciousness with the identity of the body, you suffer. A guru feels exhilarated when he sees that the disciple has become mature in spirituality, is growing from the inside. We must talk when it is indicative of that [maturing] only. I expect questions from you at your proper level, don't send questions at lower levels
V : At my level, I am only interested in silence
M : Your talk is of such a high calibre or at such a high level that it is not intelligible to the common man of any religion
A Christian worships Jesus Christ, a Muslim believes in the prophet or a god, Hindus worship so many gods, but you do not do any of this. You do not discuss any of the rituals of worshiping, or doing this and that. You don't believe in all this, so your talking is really useless
Whatever you are, that "you are," the consciousness. the atman or the self in you - that itself is nothing other than God. All the names and titles of other gods are meant for you only. You are the knowledge “I am.” So if you want to worship, worship that knowledge “I am.” Be devoted to that "I-am-ness" only
When you do that, all other rituals become redundant, useless. Finally. when you realize that everything is useless, everything is Brahman, it means you are at the Parabrahman level, the absolute level. When at that level, you will envision everything as useless, including the Brahman because the Brahman is also reduced to illusion. Therefore, all these talks, including my own, will be reduced to illusion when you reach the highest
V : Then all this worshiping will be put to rest? M : If a human being has the inclination towards devotion, it gives rise to a certain mood - feelings of adoration and worship. However. the godly state, the consciousness or beingness, transcends even this emotional state. How to transcend such an emotional state? For this purpose, certain practices are recommended
Emotions should be sublimated; you cannot expel or suppress them, for the emotional side of us is part and parcel of human nature, certainly at the lower stages
V : [asks about a book by Ramdas] I : His [the visitor's] guru has told him that before reading the book, which will take say from two weeks to a month, he should worship it, you must give a prasad for that book. Do you know the meaning of prasad? Something to eat
M : Is that book going to eat? When you worship it, do you think that book is getting pleased? It is only to satisfy or sublimate your own emotion ! Good or bad, it is all an expression of your emotions
V : I want to know my atman. How should I proceed? M : “You are,” that itself is the atman. Atman is not to know anything; that very knowledge is the atman. Worship atman as the God; there is nothing else
You worship that principle only; nothing else needs to be done
This very knowledge “you are” will lead to the highest, to the Ultimate. This "you are" is there so long as the vital breath is present. And when you worship that “you are” as the manifest Brahman only, you reach immortality. Suppose you pass on - in common parlance, death occurs to you - then that “you are” knowledge will be the manifest knowledge only and it will not die
V : [asks a question in Marathi. untranslated] M : Who are you? You know you are sitting here, you know you are, without words. just be that "you are" only
I don't like to use flowery, redundant language to put all this into words. I will come straight to the point. How many sages are going to talk from the standpoint of the self only? There is the only atman. He is the space-atman, the fire-atman, the water atman - they are all the same for the five elements. The one who has the firm conviction that except for the "I-am-ness” there is no other self, he stabilizes in the Parabrahman
*** M : The one who abides in that principle by which he knows “I am.” he is the manifest. He abides in that manifest Brahman all the twenty-four hours
Whether the body remains or not. that manifest self-principle always prevails
ln that form comes the knowledge "I am." the knowledge "I am." with the consciousness. with the self, the human particle is significant. Who are they who have propounded the worship of deities and finally the Self? Only those personalities, those sages, who understood and transcended the very source of this manifest world, this beingness, this touch of "I-am-ness." advocated to the masses the worship of the gods, ultimately leading to the beingness
You must continually remember, “chew the cud,” that the knowledge “I am” signifies knowing all the gods, all the Vedas: it is the Brahman only. You must continually think about it. And should, in the course of such reminiscing, the body drop off, then that consciousness will definitely be the highest