6. THE EXPERIENCE OF NOTHINGNESS


VISITOR : There arise a feeling of sadness when one hears from Maharaj that I will have to return again and again so long as I have not attained that state of joy, of realization

MAHARAJ : It is just like that flame: You can quit this cycle of travail when you understand that you are not that flame. You are not this composite. So long as you entertain the notion of being a name and a form, you are bound to be enmeshed in your own concepts

V : Why does the flame appear? M : That is its very nature

V : If my nature is in the lighter, why does a flame appear? M : This is not a relevant question. Why does the rain fall? Why should the sun shine? There is no cause for the world experience. For your own experience there is no cause, but you presume that parents are the cause of your existence

Because you respect your parents, you accept they are the cause of your existence. Otherwise. you spontaneously came into existence

V : All the knowledge that science and technology have given us is because of inquiring: Why does it rain, why does that move - the whys and wherefores of everything. Does Maharaj want us to quit all this science and technology, and dwell in our inner being through withdrawal? That is a way, but how to balance things? After all, we have to live and work

M : Science may eventually combine different kinds of juices and create a human being, but it is not going to contribute to the general well-being and peace. The peace will go to pieces! There is only one solution: that is to find out why you are. What is the cause of your being, "I am"? Actually, you had no knowledge that you are or you were. But at this moment, you know you are. Why is that? Understand its cause. You alone know why you are; why it is offered to you that you are, you alone know. Don't ask anyone else about it, but inquire by yourself. Don't bother about others; worry only about your own self. That knowledge "I am" is the product of what, is due to what? How and why? Inquire only into this matter

Nine months ago the child was not there. Now just three days back, the child was born. And he is crying. What is the child's crying? What is this child? How does he happen to be? The child is crying, due to what, the product of what? The world is manifest and expansive. Don't get lost there; just inquire as to why you are, how you are, how you happen to be. You were not there earlier. At present you are; how has this confluence taken place, from the "you-are-not" state..

V : There are so many different counsels: Go and visit different countries, do this, do that, do social work, get acquainted with different people. etc. Also there is withdrawal, having read the scriptures. Ramana Maharshi, Krishnamurti and others. So the mind is doubting. For this withdrawal, one needs the help of a guru. Is this guru predestined as it says in the Vedas? You know, I have seen different gurus; I have been to Krishnamurti, Maharaj, Ramana Maharshi, and have read various books and different teachings. Rajneesh seems to give a modern way, science and technology also..

Maharaj gives one dimension only. He says: withdraw, be desireless and be active. How to decide who is the best guru? [laughter] M : I am telling you a simple thing. Accept one statement from any guru

Assimilate that fully and believe in yourself, consider and accept your own self as the guru. Accept no one else as such. The final prerequisite for this spiritual precept is self-confidence, a firm faith in oneself. If you have no faith in your own self, you are hopeless. You are an outcast. Your self itself is the guru. Do you understand now? The guru is Brahman; the guru is knowledge, the guru is brihaspati, and the sum total of all that is your own self

*** V : I want to ask about G0d's grace and free will

M : The bare fact that you are alive, you are, that itself is the grace of God

And all the activities that happen through you are the expression of the grace

In such situations, if something bad happens, remember that “you are” - merely because of the grace of God. If the grace of God were not there, that “you-are-ness” would not be there. So remember that "you are" itself is the grace of God

V : Unintelligible question about doing japa [reciting a name of God]

M : The whole significance of doing japa dwells in your faith. You must have faith first. Your self-identity is nourished by such faith through japa. Don't do anything mechanically. for then there is no soul in the recitation of the japa. If you don't recite soulfully, there is no point in it at all. Do plenty of dhyana-yoga meditation. Practice meditation. more and more

*** M : I would like to make room for newcomers. Eight days for them only; that should be sufficient for everyone. Some people I will request to stay; I can't explain why. And some people, although they would like to stay, I will send away. There are various kinds of seekers. Some come exclusively for knowledge: they are not interested in the person who delivers it. Once they get the knowledge, they go. Other people want knowledge but for them the priority is guru worship. Devotion to the guru comes first and only incidentally they collect knowledge

There are some great sages who in their seeker stage used to do devotion or worship of a god only for namesake, but because of their intensity of devotion reached their goal. The one who is doing devotion to his guru, to such a person even the god is devoted

*** INTERPRETER : Because of Maharaj's sickness, many types of experts have come here to offer their advice. So today one person told him that he knew of a healer who could diagnose an illness by feeling the ten fingers and ten toes and could then suggest some treatment. So he approached Maharaj whether he would be interested to have such a person come to see him. But Maharaj said he was not interested and continued to state: "I am not the least interested in this daily ritual of getting up in the morning, eating and again sleeping and all this..

I have had enough of all that. I do not expect anything from this World. I am not going to achieve, attain, possess anything, because I am fed up with that very consciousness out of which the world is created and want to get rid of this consciousness." M : People are visiting this place. I treat them with respect. and reply to all their questions. But this does not mean that I expect them to come daily

Although they come here, it does not mean that I am seeking their association. I would like to be alone

Whatever natural experiences you encounter, just accept them as they come

Just be with them. Don't try to alter anything. Whatever is today, it never was; and whatever is today will never be in future

Knowing this entire game of consciousness or Maya, the great sage Jnaneshwar made his valedictory prayer before taking samadhi. He prayed to God and said: Let the desires of all be fulfilled. Any kind of desire! And then, let the bad people be punished and let good intentions develop in the hearts of people. In spite of that prayer, there was no change in the sum total of those bad things and good things. Finally, all this play - the sum total of all these bad things and good things - is illusion only. And there is nobody responsible for the creation! It has spontaneously come about and ultimately it is an illusion. So there is no question of rectifying or preventing that. It will go on in its own way

There have been so many sages. japi-tapi's [seekers practicing japas and tapas (austerities)], spiritual seekers of various orders, they have come and gone, but I raise no objection to whatever they say or the way they behave. I have no comments on them. I have come to the conclusion that the world is spontaneously there without any seed [cause]; its creation is seedless, but in the world it is full of seeds for me. Procreation or re-creation is going on all the time

V : Since Maharaj is a jnani, he must be despising this whole world as something very mean and low? M : That question does not arise, because from my standpoint the world is not. You indicate to me where is the world, what is the world? Can you point your finger and say: "This is the world"? The World is not; it is a mere appearance

V : Having attained knowledge, how is it that you have been able to associate with various kinds of people? Some fellows might be very bad, some people may be obsessed by their minds, some people are good - how could you get on with all such persons? M : Who is to get on? I have no pose, no stance, no fixed form of my own. If I had, it would be difficult to relate to anybody. Since I don't have any form, by nothingness I have become the subtlest, so I can fit into anything, any situation

Suppose a man is rich, he is wearing a lot of ornaments and expensive clothes; when he leaves his house there is always danger lurking. This is on account of the fact that he represents so many ideas, concepts, and because of his reputation that he is somebody, that he is a rich man. He is afraid of going into the street. A naked beggar who goes into the street has nothing to lose. Similarly, having lost everything, I have nothing more to lose; I can encounter any situation and fit into anything

So long as you wear a name and a form, all these problems will be there. In the absence of name and form, there are no problems. Let us say. I have land and property, with farms, etc. About the time of the rains there are always concerns such as whether I will be able to till the soil, whether there are seeds available, etc.; all such worries exist. After losing the farms, I am freed from such concerns and all that can be ignored

While sticking to your name and form, you have to worry about things, In the spiritual pursuit, you gradually lose your form and as the form is shed, the name also detaches itself. There are ever so many customers; all are out to gain and possess something in the name of knowledge, even spiritual knowledge, but nobody is a customer for the true self-knowledge

I will tell you about the normal tendency of a person. There is the story about an old man, quite well off, who had a very satisfying family life, had worldly possessions, and had lived to about a hundred or a hundred-twenty-five years

And now he lies on his deathbed in his village house. Normally in the villages even the cattle shed is attached to the main building itself. So you can watch from the bedroom and see the cattle shed. Even on his deathbed, he will not be inclined to thinking very noble thoughts, he will not be contemplating something very “high.” He is looking at the calf, and the calf was chewing a broomstick. He was very worried about the broomstick getting damaged, so he was shouting: "Off with the broomstick !." while about to kick the bucket. He was calling out: “The broomstick, the broomstick! Take care of the broomstick ! ” While uttering that “broomstick, broomstick...” he breathed his last

The traditional concept is that whatever strong concern one has at the time of death, he will be reincarnated into. So probably he will be born as a broomstick ! *** M : The question is: What yardstick exists to measure the progress of a seeker? A very weak man was not able to walk. Gradually, he started getting stronger and began to walk. So then he knows that he has regained his strength, does he not? The indication of one's progress is shown by your disinclination to associate with so-called “normal” people. Your desires and expectations get less and less

Please ask some questions. but don't ask anything about family life: ask only about spiritual knowledge

You must have an intense hunger or need for it, to get self-knowledge or spirituality. The complete world picture you get through the five sense organs, and the combination of that multiplied by a certain factor represents your worldly needs. Just like a fish out of water gasps for water, so you must covet self-knowledge. When out of intense hunger for spirituality or self-knowledge the floodgates are opened, you start rejecting everything, from the broomstick to Ishvara, up to your own consciousness; you shed everything

In the worldly life, with the power of money, you can purchase anything

Similarly, by donating the self, you get the Brahman state: and when you donate the Brahman state. you get the Parabrahman state. In the first state, you become the manifest consciousness ; in the second or the last state, you surrender the consciousness also. At the end of the process you are the Parabrahman

V : I know the experience of the nothingness, and I just wanted to know where do I go from here? M : In that nothingness, what is present? That "you" which has been present in that nothingness and has had the experience of nothingness, who or what is that? Someone or something has had the experience of nothingness: now what is that someone or something? V : Complete emptiness

M : What is that experience itself? Does it have a shape or form? V : I can't think of any shape or form for it

M : That which has no shape or form, is that “you”? V : I don't know. I have only had this experience and I feel every thought and everything else was just a lot of rubbish. Everything in the world is just a lot of nonsense, it has no meaning. The only thing I have got is “nothing.” that is the only thing that has meaning. I can't express it..

M : That is all right. But in the balance of all this experience and noexperience, what is it that you think you are? What is your knowledge about your own identity ? What result have you got? What is the balance sheet ? Ultimately. what is the conclusion you have arrived at about your self ? Is there something at all. or are you also nothing? V : I am nothing

M : Don't use the word “I.” But what is it that is nothing? V : I don't know

M : Have you done any meditation? V : There was a seminar of EST, a four-day course of continual meditation; I went to one of those...and that's where I got the experience of nothingness

M : What does EST stand for? V : EST is an organization; it means "to be" in French. It is a regular institution that gives seminars

M : The answer you have given is correct. But with that answer, there is nothing further that can be said. Have you come to that conclusion with conviction? V : Yes, I have. You see, I have felt that this nothingness, if it indeed is the ultimate reality that I have been looking for, then I am not happy with it because it does not seem to nurture me

M : If there is nothingness, then there is nothingness about [nothing left of] an individual either. So who is it who is grumbling, who is not satisfied with the experience, with the nothingness? If there is nothingness, there must be total nothingness. There can't be an individual who is away from it and can still say

"There is nothingness." So what is this individual, who is not satisfied with the total nothingness, which it is? Who is dissatisfied? Who is grumbling? In that nothingness, the individual also must be dissolved. Then who is it that is grumbling? Who is it that is not satisfied? V : Oh. grumbling means...there is no interest now in doing anything or fighting the battles of life as we used to do before, like warriors

I : So that individual has been dissolved? V : There is nothing, absolutely nothing

I : Then, where is the dissatisfaction? Dissatisfaction must be felt by somebody! V : How can one live in this world..

I : But who? That is Maharaj's question! V : The physical body, the physical manifestation. How can it live and how can it survive on this earth with a form if all the time it has got this concept of complete nothingness? M : I come back to the same thing. What is it that has to do anything in this nothingness? What is it that is left in this nothingness who has to do anything? V : Perhaps this nothingness was only a beginning, and was just a quest like everything else

M : Something has turned into nothingness. What is that something that has turned into nothingness? This consciousness that I am, that I exist, that concept itself has turned into nothingness. So what is left? Who is left? V : Nothing is left

M : The answer is a hundred percent correct. But I wanted to find out how steady you are in that nothingness. What is or is not, don't argue about that: we can only talk about what has happened to you. And you as an individual or the conscious presence has been dissolved into nothingness. That is all you can say

Once you are in that situation. there is nothing; whatever work you do, whatever your behavior, is the work and behavior of that child of a barren woman, that does not exist as an individual

V : No. I feel as if l am an observer to this whole thing; it is all a massive play. you know - an act

M : If the one who observes that is also dissolving into nothingness, then what? V : But he can't, because the physical body is there

M : The answer was a hundred percent correct. Therefore, I assume that that to which this answer has been has also been dissolved into nothingness, and that there is no individuality left. But from your subsequent treatment of this problem I conclude that this individuality still remains. Therefore, my final answer to you is that you continue to do your sadhana

The jnani who has this experience of nothingness, his individuality does not remain. So whatever happens, he no longer has an instrument with which to undergo any experience. But in your case. you say that nothingness is there, and also your individuality - the two are incompatible [that is, mutually exclusive]

Therefore, continue to do your sadhana. If you really are at a stage where you find the nothingness. what then is left to do anything in this world? V : There is nothing left. But then what should I do, commit suicide? M : You are not there even to die! V : No. I appreciate that. That is not the answer either. Nothing is an answer to this. But where do I go from here? M : The lady was explaining that there are all kinds of EST type of methods and systems which come with the promise of liberation in ten or twelve days. As for myself, I no longer care about all this. I have come to this nothingness in which the search has ended because the seeker has also disappeared into that nothingness of which we are talking. I no longer take any interest in that research. First. I have seduced Maya and once the Maya surrendered to me. I had no other use for Maya so I threw her out

Thousands of organizations have come and gone, thousands are yet to come

All of them are based on a certain concept. For example, one had the concept of untouchability; now to a certain extent that concept of untouchability has gone

But have the people because of that concept been able to realize their true nature? Therefore, none of these organizations have any use; the ultimate thing is to find out about one's true nature. In this, organizations can do nothing, because they are all based on a certain concept

V : But this organization put me in touch with my beingness and that is the whole point

M : In that very nothingness which we have been discussing, the individuality should have been dissolved so that there is no longer anyone who is satisfied or dissatisfied. How could he be satisfied, because there is no longer anything to be satisfied in, in that nothingness? So what you have got is not the real thing, although your answer was a hundred percent correct. Only that individual who has lost his individuality has merged with the Parabrahman. So the individuality must go. The entire world moves on the basis of one concept

and that is “I am” - the fundamental concept of one's individuality

V : When the basic concept is “I am nothing,” how can the world move? That is what I am trying to express

M : If you had come to the conclusion that you are not, then how can any further concept or any further question arise? If you had really come to the firm conclusion that is no longer there, how can any further question arise at all? V : That means there is nothing further than that? M : Everything that is there, it is fullness and it is nothingness. So long as I do not have that “I-am-ness.” I no longer have the concept that I am an individual. Then my individuality has merged into this everythingness or nothingness and everything is all right

V : But there is no everythingness, it is nothingness. I do not get the feeling of everythingness. That is what I am trying to say

M : So if there is nothingness, then who is to do anything anyway? Assuming that there is nothingness, who is there to search for anything, even everythingness? In that nothingness, you are also not there. Then who is it that wants anything more than this? V : I don't know

M : Again the answer that you don't know is a hundred percent correct because in that state where you did not know, you did not even know that you existed. And this "I-am-ness" has come subsequently without your wanting it

And whatever knowledge you have now has been accumulating since the arrival of this “I-am-ness.” But in your original state, the not-knowing is there

V : The problem is where do I go from here? M : Who? The question is “who” is to go anywhere? It started with the whole thing and the circle is now complete. In that nothingness, we are also nothingness. So who is to go anywhere? For whom are there any more questions left? In that nothingness, anything is nothingness. You are also nothingness

Your question is very much like the child of a childless couple asking “Where do I go from here?” Where is he to go? And from where has he come? I will continue with the same old simile. A very old couple are held in great esteem, love and reverence by all their acquaintances. So the couple dies. All the acquaintances decide that they must do something for the child. But the child had not been born. For whom could they do something? Once the knowledge of the self dawns, there is no longer any question of good or bad, suffering or not suffering, happiness or unhappiness; the question just does not arise

Are there any further questions? V : If the jnani is beyond consciousness and unconsciousness, he must contain consciousness. The jnani, after all, is the totality. How can that which contains consciousness not be conscious? M : Knowledge, the entire manifestation, is the form of knowledge, jnana

But the jnani has no form or shape; he has transcended consciousness. Therefore

whatever acts is the universal consciousness and not the jnani. So don't talk anymore about the jnani. Rather talk about this consciousness - individual consciousness or the universal consciousness - which is the basis of all your thoughts. So that subject you should discuss. Forget about the jnani, because he is beyond that. And whatever you think the jnani is talking about, it is not the jnani talking but the universal consciousness

Whatever you discuss. it can only be on the basis of this "I-am-ness." Forget about this jnani aspect, inquire only about jnana

V : That is where the shoe pinches: this conflict between jnana and the jnani

However high you go, however deep you go inwardly, unless you become a jnani, there will always be a path that goes beyond it; one will not be satisfied with the universal consciousness. one will ever want to go further

M : There is no question of anyone becoming a jnani. The jnani is out of time, so one cannot become one. A jnani in the process of stabilizing in the jnana state possesses for some time the pride of that "I am Brahman" state and therefore talks about it. That, however, is not the ultimate jnani state. I will not participate in any concept of yours

V : There are a group of ethical concepts – loyalty, gratitude, justice, keeping one's word, etc. Now, it has also been said that this is something beyond good and evil, neither good nor bad, etc. But certain groups of concepts like those I mentioned seem to be inseparably connected to the concept of the man of achievement. In other words, one assumes that such a man would somehow embody these qualities. My question is: Is that right or is it just an illusion? I : What do you mean by “a man of achievement”? V : A jnani

I : Ah, but a man of achievement in the world, that is quite different

M : All the qualities you mentioned as well as all possible qualities you can imagine are in consciousness or knowledge. The jnani, however, is beyond all qualities and concepts

V : O.K.. I have one supplement to my question: Does such a person want..

I : No, because there is no “person.” Therefore, all the qualities are in knowledge or the consciousness. The jnani is beyond all concepts and all qualities. He is no longer an individual; therefore, whatever applies to an individual does not apply to him. That is the answer to the question. All the misconceptions arise because we think of the jnani as an individual. The jnani has lost his individuality

Maharaj explains that he is not only not an individual, but he is also beyond the duality of manifestation and non-manifestation

Do you have any questions? V : No

I : What has happened? No questions! Silence is a good defense, self-protection

Maybe, you are afraid to expose yourself

V : Is it correct to assume that somebody who is to be what Maharaj talks about will ordinarily manifest the qualities of justice, loyalty, gratitude. honesty, etc.? M : That is not necessarily so at all. Even a murderer can get knowledge. His past deeds or the absence of these good qualities never come in the way. A classical example is Valmiki, who wrote Ramayana. For every murder he committed he put a tiny pebble in a vessel, and in this manner he accumulated seven enormous vessels filled to the brim. All these murders he had committed did not prevent him being a jnani

Ultimately. all these concepts can and must be understood to be false, but the difficulty and the essential thing is to be convinced that the original, basic concept “I am” itself is false

You like the talks? V : I like getting answers

M : Having obtained and digested the answers, one's ego must gradually dissipate

If there are no further questions, we will close this meeting

Share: