MAHARAJ : That state referred to as the unborn child. I have tried to describe it as brilliant, glorious, etc. but it is really mind-boggling; you can't try to use your mind or intelligence to understand it. Give it up! Don't communicate all this to others, but you chase it, you pursue it and be that! Don't be lazy! How can anybody put questions on this thing, which is being discussed? It is nice to hear those particular words and statements, which "click” at that moment, giving momentary satisfaction. but this is something different; this is going to change you. Any experience or any satisfaction that you get is momentary, meant for that time only. Once that time is gone, the satisfaction is gone and everything is over
VISITOR : Then what is permanent and how to achieve the permanent?
M : Understand whatever is time-bound and eliminate all time-bound stages
The one who recognizes all these time-bound stages, that one is beyond time, is prior to time. Stay put there. You can understand all these time-bound stages only from a pedestal which is not time-bound. Be there!
V : How to reach it?
M : Follow it up; there are no further words that can be applied to explain it further
V : By what means, rituals, or procedures can it be attained?
M : IS it not beyond effort. beyond understanding? When you are the instrument of understanding, all sources of the intellect are kept aside. Whatever remains is that state. Presently, we are fully in the grasp of this beingness or consciousness. Consciousness is the product of this food essence body
Whatever occurs to this beingness is “knowledge,” maybe even profound knowledge, and we cling to that. But that is not the true knowledge. Beingness is the product of the food essence, it cannot be eternal knowledge because it is time-bound. Do you understand that? Don't try to give thought after understanding a little bit of this. Try to absorb and imbibe this fully until you stabilize in your true Self
V : I have not understood myself fully, so the question of giving it up simply cannot arise
M : That “I-am-ness” is again the product of this food body. Where is the question of knowing that also? What you call “yourself,” or “you,” is the product of this food essence body
How can that beingness understand “you” the Truth, you the Absolute? To the ignorant one can give a talk depending heavily on spiritual jargon about the Brahman, about this and that - all the stories. However, when it comes to yourself you must really understand the true Self
"You are alive” is a concept and it is false. In this body there is the principle which we know as “yourself.” That principle has no form, but you understand that as the knowledge “I am.” We also call it the consciousness, the “I”- consciousness or the beingness. Now the various names are the names of this consciousness only: The consciousness gives rise to the world. The world is within that consciousness. Try to understand that
This is the only way to knowledge of the Self; through this consciousness you can know yourself, what you are. All other types of knowledge in the world are ways to enable you to earn a livelihood, to get money and live in the world
Otherwise, that is not knowledge at all. Knowledge of the Self is the only real knowledge
In the universal consciousness there are no individuals. We are looking at different forms, we give them names like man, God, donkey, and such. But ultimately there is this consciousness only, the universal consciousness. And we should not identify ourselves as a separate entity, a separate body. We are that knowledge; it has no name or form. That is the essence of my teaching
Two college students had come here. I told them: Forget spirituality, follow your normal inclinations. tendencies, do your normal duties. just give up spirituality. Why did I talk to them like this? I got involved in spirituality, in the business of spirituality; and finally I lost that love of the self also. I have no more love for the self. That is the reason
A chief anchor for anybody is the love for the self, consciousness, the “I love” state, the main bonding. I started spirituality in the name of self-knowing only, because I loved myself, I loved to be. And I wanted to know what is God
And to know that means spirituality. So in this bargain I lost that; I am no longer fascinated by that love to be. Because that is the main bondage, the main condition, the “I-love.” So long as the vital breath operates, so long as the pulse will be beating, until then there is this love to be, until then there is the consciousness. When the vital breath quits the body, the pulse will stop and “I am- ness” is no more. Since my love to be is now completely finished, exhausted, I have no more fascination for that state of “I-love”. Therefore, I have no more love for anybody. We normally involve ourselves in loving somebody else from the main standpoint that I love to be
I call this, our skull, an earthen pot. So long as this earthen pot is not properly baked, you have to collect knowledge from elsewhere. When it is properly baked and it sounds well, then you will be in a position to understand of what I am talking. But what will happen after you listen to my talks? The shell will burst; it will crack
Ritually, while cremating the body, the son has to light the fire ; then we will take an earthen pot, full of water, and put that in a small hole we have made; and then he will move round that funeral pyre in a "wrong" direction. Normally, the direction is by keeping the object to the right, moving clockwise [that is, around a sacred object or location, Editor] but here the object is kept to the left, so he will be moving counter-clockwise. And after some three perambulations, he will throw the mud pot at the back, not in front, and he will go on chanting
So like that, when you come here, you will be cremating yourself. Whatever identity you have, whatever idea you have about your own self, will be cremated. Would you like this type of knowledge, which I am exposing here? This love to be, this consciousness, unsolicited, spontaneously, it has come - for no reason. And since then, it occupies itself with all activities. All these worldly activities are only due to that, self-love. love to be. But self-love is not real. It cannot be eternal; it is a passing phase. All this knowledge, in final analysis, is of no use. Since you will liquidate that very consciousness, finally whatever you have heard here is of no use. Because only within the realm of consciousness is knowledge innocent. But having heard whatever I have said, if you retain it in your memory and because of your association with that knowledge, some new knowledge also will sprout in you. All this is of no use really. But it has one use: you will be able to parade your knowledge before the ignorant masses, and you have a chance to become a guru
With whatever knowledge you originally had plus the knowledge you have heard, and the knowledge which has sprouted in you, when you finally understand and realize all that, you definitely will come to the conclusion that it is all unreal, of no use. Nevertheless, having realized that, you will have a certain stature in spirituality and people will be flocking to you, listen to what you say
At that stage, whatever occurs to you, you can just blurt it out. Because for the ignorant masses that will be profound knowledge. But in this bargain, what will happen is that you will be elevated to a very high stature. as a guru. So beware of that
The main capital. the only primary capital that anybody has, is only this: deep sleep, waking state and that little touch of "I-am-ness," nothing else. Any questions here?
V : How does one link up with consciousness?
M : How are you linked with sleep?
V : That is a natural state
M : This is also natural. You are linked with consciousness as a natural state
V : How do you realize it? I have tried to be calm and listen to myself but it is in no way my natural state
M : Right now the body is real, the world is real for you. And you have now the waking state, deep sleep and the knowledge “I am.” How long is this going to remain true or real to you? 'Without this waking state, deep sleep and you are not there, nor the world, nor the body. How long were you associated with these three states? Right now you are fully associated with them
V : Looking at myself, all my life has been associated with those states
M : Are you sure? What do you mean by “my whole life”? “Life” means a certain life span. from one day to a hundred years. After a hundred years, no more association of this
V : What I difficult is to become detached from myself and see myself as an illusion
M : That is because you have identified yourself with this body. "I am with the body." That is why it is so difficult. Have you any other identity but for the body?
V : I am trying hard to detach myself
M : You must. But your true nature Cannot be clasped or grasped. Whatever you catch hold of cannot be real
V : How do you get to the true nature?
M : Once you reject what you are not, whatever finally remains, the leftover is yourself - your true nature
Presently, Whatever you know is “I am.” This “I am” is the product of the five elements. Out of the elements comes the food body and because of the food body, that “I-am-ness” is sustained. And you are also not that "I am." "I am" is the taste, or the fragrance, of this food body. The ultimate has no fragrance. no taste. no touch of "I-am-ness." V : But don't we need the mind to turn us into an inner direction first? M : Yes. but before you start thinking of turning your mind inward, hold on to yourself whatever you are. You know you are, just be there
*** M : When you did not have the body. whatever you might have done, can you recollect anything?
V : No
SECGND VISITOR: The scriptures say that we have our karma and our sins, and that is why we are here
M : That is for the ignorant masses. One who has realized the self knowledge “I am.” for him these stories are of no use
V : Is all this the concept of prarabdha? M : You are talking of destiny. What is the destiny of this? Destiny is like the lighter and the fuel contained in it
The five-elemental juice is the prarabdha, the destiny. Whatever it is that sustains the consciousness, that is the destiny. If you think you are interested in spirituality. I am dissuading you. If you follow any other vocation except spirituality, you have some hope that you will succeed sometime. But if you enter spirituality, all your hopes will ultimately be shattered. You will be left with no hopes nor expectations. So I again advise you, don't jump into this spiritual thing. If you do that, you will be licking without a tongue; you will be left with nothing. You might even invite your own death; death will be there, death will meet you, you will be shivering in your shoes
Who is that recipient, intimate relation, who is going to receive all the sufferings? It is only that entity with three aspects - waking state, deep sleep and the knowingness - that is suffering or enjoying. What else have you? just as hair grows out of your head, so all the mental aspects or phenomena grow out of your consciousness
V : For the past ten years I have been reading and studying Ramana Maharshi and also Maurice Frydrnan. I have been talking to him; now I have a problem as to which type of sadhana to pursue. And the feeling of fulfillment, clarity, has been eluding me. I am in a state of indecision to choose from among Ramana Maharshi, Maurice Frydman and Maharaj
M : I advise you to give up spirituality and follow your vocation. What is the sum total of the body of work, the conclusion of the thoughts, of the three men you have referred to?
V : One has to gain confidence and make a decision and act according to the truth, which I am obviously unable to do because of my lack of confidence
M : To grow in self-confidence, hold on to your primary capital that “you are.” “You are” means: waking state, deep sleep and the touch of “I-am-ness.” That is your primary capital. by which you know that you are. Hold on to that, abide therein, worship that as your only guru. In the absence of this triad - waking state, deep sleep and “I-am-ness” - what are you? What have you?
V : Conflict of indecision
M : In the absence of the waking state, deep sleep and “I-am-ness,” have you anything?
V : I think that is all. All the three we have
M : The meaning of this triad is “you,” “you are,” your consciousness, the state “I love to be.” [To this particular visitor] Please continue
V : I want Maharaj's blessing, and hope that I can go to Ramanashram for some time. There are two things that are trying to keep me back - in the sense that I must do this, must do that... my relatives and friends might feel bad about me, because I have been unstable for the last fifteen years, and this year again Maharaj says that all hopes. all plans, all expectations will be shattered. So this will be one more shattering. But all the same, I want... left the shattering happen and let me be peaceable in Ramanashram. I want Maharaj's support to move on
M : You are going to stay there permanently or you are going to retrace your steps?
V : That I don't know, I want to go all the same... one, two, three. four months... as long as possible
M : Eventually, you will find shelter and peace in no other ashram except your very own. That visranti - it means: ultimate relaxation - final abidance, will be available only in your ashram and nowhere else. The road is inward into your ashram
V : The real ashram within, I have yet to discover
M : The real, profound meaning of ashram is the firm conviction that I am
That is the inner abode. Where do we stay? We stay in the society of “I-amness” and in the house of “I-am-ness” only
V : Why would the world be created as an illusion? It seems real to us but it is not
M : Nobody created it. Spontaneously it has come about. Prior to knowing this knowingness, “I-am-ness,” where is the illusion? Prior to the consciousness, where was the illusion? The primary illusion is only this knowingness “I am.” Prior to that there was no illusion. This very consciousness is the source of illusion. This illusion or consciousness or “I-am-ness” does not remain as something eternal. It is liberated; this non-eternal consciousness is liberated
When the knowingness is transformed into non-knowingness, that is the liberation
V : Our illusion in our present consciousness..
M : The present consciousness itself is illusion
V : That is right. Our illusion of the present consciousness is time, is it not?
M : Take the example of the dream world. You have the feeling that you woke up. Actually you are in deep sleep, on the bed. You have the illusion that you woke up, and out of this illusion the dream world is born. Similarly, with this illusion. Although not in the waking state, the apparent feeling that I woke up, that itself creates a dream world
V : How do you wake up then, out of this dream World?
M : You have to go into quietude, you have to be still
V : What do you look for when you are still? M : You must look at yourself. You meet the consciousness. Consciousness must look at the consciousness. "I-am-ness" must look at the "I-am-ness."
V : Where do you look? Is it in you, behind you?
M : It is neither looking backward, forward, or upside down. Just be as you are. Just be! Do nothing. Although I am not very knowledgeable spiritually. I am posing very relevant questions. You assume that you are knowledgeable spiritually, but you are not able to ask very relevant questions
Anyone else who wants to talk? If anything occurs to you, please speak; but don't just speak about irrelevant things. If you are inclined toward social work, by all means follow that inclination
V : But as Maharaj has said, that if you follow the path of spirituality, all that you plan - social work, good works or whatever it is - outward-going, they will all be shattered. But I am asking, can the inward journey and outward expression be done harmoniously?
M : The mind flow is always external, never internal. In the inward journey of self-discovery, that external mind flow comes to a complete halt. So when you are going inward into yourself, you will not have the mental inclinations to flow outward. like doing social work. That is a natural corollary. It is possible to do both things simultaneously in some fashion, but when you are truly seriously going inward the mind flow stops altogether: there will be no more outgoing movement. Have you understood? So whether you want to be preserved or perish, you must stick to your determination
V : I picked up from yesterdays conversation your advice that we must give up our self-love. Is that correct?
M : Some of us misunderstand. I knew they would. You see. the self-love is the one thing that is; I call it consciousness, the sense of existence, the sense that I am. And because that is, everything is. If one were not conscious, one would not see the world. So with this love for this beingness, one wants that consciousness, existence, to continue. So the love for this “I-am-ness” is the one thing which has to be there. But don't identify that love with the body that you think you are. That is the one thing that exists. Not the self-love, that is the love for this beingness, that which gives one the sense of being, existing, I am. That love must be there, but don't..
V : Not the love for the body
M : No, but that “I-am-ness” don't let it identify itself with the body; that is nothing
What is this body? The body is nothing but good food, and the essence of that good food is the "I am," and this body is the sustenance for this this “I-amness” consciousness. If the body weren't there, the consciousness would not be there. So this consciousness needs the body, but it is not the body. That is the fundamental understanding. It is a necessity
Keep one thing very clearly in mind: you are not God. you are not [the body which is] going to die. And, if people want to worship - and one must - one should not worship anything that is foreign, as God. Worship as God that which came with you; to wit, this life force (the vital breath) and this consciousness together. That is the God anyone can know; any other God is alien to you. Then you worship the power which gives one sentience - the feeling, the sense of existing. The body is merely the sustenance for this life force. See this life force cum consciousness as the supreme God
V : God is within you
M : God is within you, but I do not mean “within” literally. That which exists in and of itself is God. Consciousness and the life force together, that is God. And that is one with the body, because the body is the sustenance for this consciousness and life force together; you can't divide them. And then when a person is called dead, this is what happens : the life force within has gone out and merged with the air outside. That is all that has happened
What does one act on? One acts on the thought, which is produced by the mind. And what is mind? Mind is the working principle of this life force. The life force merely goes on. The consciousness and the life force merely watch
The action takes place through the mind. Mind gives rise to thought, the thought is interpreted, and then the action takes place
V : But the mind creates desires; and we should be careful of those, right?
M : You cannot control them. All you can do is to purify this life force, and thereafter whatever is produced by the life force are the thoughts and the desires
They may be better desires. So the only thing one can do is to purify this life force
All our actions. the way the actions in the world go on, is on account of the mind. The mind creates the problems. Then the problems are converted into words and the words produce the actions
God's name is repeated in the mantra. The mantra refers to a particular thought and when that name is repeated constantly, the life force assumes the qualities of that on which the meditation takes place. So thereby the life force gets purified and becomes that on which the meditation takes place
V : So in order to purify the life force and the consciousness, is meditation necessary?
M : Meditation and repeating the name are both necessary but only for the limited purpose of purifying the life force. I repeat, that is no jnana. But for this purification, this is the means: and it has to be done
Whatever knowledge you gain refers only to that consciousness which is your birthright and with which anyone is born and which gives one's sense of existence. Knowledge is based on that consciousness. That is why I will not now let people stay on for a long time, because then the self is taken as their own. It is better that they listen and then go, and let that knowledge, with which they have been imbibed, work through the life force. The words are the language of the life force. Whatever words and actions take place, at their origin lies the life force
So it is essentially that life force which does everything in the world
Thus. the consciousness works through the life force; and the life force works through the mind and the word, which is the basis for all actions
Therefore, no individual has yet come into the picture. And when this life force settles down into this consciousness, and therefore no longer works through the world, it settles down into what is generally known as samadhi because there is no objectivization
But if the life force and consciousness are present, then the world exists. If there is no life force and consciousness, the world does not exist. The world is a creation of only these two
People pray to God, but what is God? God is a creation of this consciousness and life force - some concept to which people pray. Therefore, pray to that which creates the concept of God
V : Is there an evolution in man. as taught in science?
M : Yes, you can accept it as a concept. But what you call man, a human being, what is that? And what is it in the presence of which there is a human being, and in the absence of which there is no human being? And what is it in the presence of which there is life and a human being can function, and in its absence you will say the man is dead? V : Consciousness
M : Consciousness. the life force. In the absence of the life force, consciousness is not there
V : Is consciousness evolving also?
M : Consciousness is present throughout and manifests itself in various forms. The light that you see is itself the light of the consciousness. What is is consciousness and whatever is cannot be anything other than the consciousness
V : Is this any different today than thousands of years ago?
M : Give up this idea of individuality. and what is now has always been thousands and millions of years ago. Eons ago and now what is still is, but give up the identification with an individual. This “what is” will always be there
Give good attention to what is being said, hang on to it without any other concepts interfering. You used the word “science.” What do you really understand by that term? A study of what?
V : Life and matter have regular patterns. There are rules of combinations and laws that we seem to live under; for example, the laws of physics that govern movement and the laws of chemistry that govern combinations of different substances, and so on. Their study is what I understand by science
M : As I understand it, science is really nothing but analytical and a bent of mind towards research, maybe in regard of anything. A search born out of curiosity about something. I consider science as going deeper and deeper into the nature of a particular subject
How long can the best of scientists keep his life force going? Does he have any control over it? No one has control over his life force. The life force has come spontaneously. and it will go spontaneously
In deep sleep, consciousness is resting, but the life force goes on. At the end of life, the life force merges with the air outside but does not die