Questioner: From what you told us it appears that you are not quite conscious
of your surroundings. To us you seem extremely alert and active. We cannot
possibly believe that you are in a kind of hypnotic state, which leaves no
memory behind. On the contrary, your memory seems excellent. How are we to
understand your statement that the world and all it includes does not exist,
as far as you are concerned.
Maharaj: It is all a matter of focus. Your mind is focussed in the world,
mine is focussed in reality. It is like the moon in daylight -- when the sun
shines, the moon is hardly visible. Or, watch how you take your food. As
long as it is in your mouth, you are conscious of it; once swallowed, it
does not concern you any longer. It would be troublesome to have it
constantly in mind until it is eliminated. The mind should be normally in
abeyance -- incessant activity is a morbid state. The universe works by
itself -- that I know. What else do I need to know?
Q: So a jnani knows what he is doing
only when he turns his mind to it; otherwise he just acts, without being
concerned.
M: The average man is not conscious of his body as such. He is conscious of
his sensations, feelings and thoughts. Even these, once detachment sets in,
move away from the centre of consciousness and happen spontaneously and
effortlessly.
Q: What then is in the centre of
consciousness?
M: That which cannot be given name and form, for it is without quality and
beyond consciousness. You may say it is a point in consciousness, which is
beyond consciousness. Like a hole in the paper is both in the paper and yet
not of paper, so is the supreme state in the very centre of consciousness,
and yet beyond consciousness. It is as if an opening in the mind through
which the
mind is flooded with light. The opening is not even the light. It is just an
opening.
Q: An opening is just void, absence.
M: Quite so. From the mind's point of view, it is but an opening for the
light of awareness to enter the mental space. By itself the light can only
be compared to a solid, dense, rocklike, homogeneous and changeless mass of
pure awareness, free from the mental patterns of name and shape.
Q: Is there any connection between
the mental space and the supreme abode?
M: The supreme gives existence to the mind. The mind gives existence to the
body.
Q: And what lies beyond?
M: Take an example. A venerable Yogi, a master in the art of longevity,
himself over 1000 years old, comes to teach me his art. I fully respect and
sincerely admire his achievements, yet all I can tell him is: of what use is
longevity to me? I am beyond time. However long a life may be, it is but a
moment and a dream. In the same way I am beyond all attributes. They appear
and disappear in my light, but cannot describe me. The universe is all names
and forms, based on qualities and their differences, while I am beyond. The
world is there because I am, but I am not the world.
Q: But you are living in the world!
M: That's what you say! I know there is a world, which includes this body
and this mind, but I do not consider them to be more “mine” than other minds
and bodies. They are there, in time and space, but I am timeless and
spaceless.
Q: But since all exists by your
light, are you not the creator of the world?
M: I am neither the potentiality nor the actualisation, nor the actuality of
things. In my light they come and go as the specks of dust dancing in the
sunbeam. The light illumines the specks, but does not depend on them. Nor
can it be said to create them. It cannot be even said to know them.
Q: I am asking you a question and you
are answering. Are you conscious of the question and the answer?
M: In reality I am neither hearing nor answering. In the world of events the
question happens and the answer happens. Nothing happens to me. Everything
just happens.
Q: And you are the witness?
M: What does witness mean? Mere knowledge. It rained and now the rain is
over. I did not get wet. I know it rained, but I am not affected. I just
witnessed the rain.
Q: The fully realised man,
spontaneously abiding in the supreme state, appears to eat, drink and so on.
Is he aware of it, or not?
M: That in which consciousness happens, the universal consciousness or mind,
we call the ether of consciousness. All the objects of consciousness form
the universe. What is beyond both, supporting both, is the supreme state, a
state of utter stillness and silence. Whoever goes there, disappears. It is
unreachable by words, or mind. You may call it God, or Parabrahman, or
Supreme Reality, but these are names given by the mind. It is the nameless,
contentless, effortless and spontaneous state, beyond being and not being.
Q: But does one remain conscious?
M: As the universe is the body of the mind, so is consciousness the body of
the supreme. It is not conscious, but it gives rise to consciousness.
Q: In my daily actions much goes by
habit, automatically. I am aware of the general purpose, but not of each
movement in detail. As my consciousness broadens and deepens, details tend
to recede, leaving me free for the general trends. Does not the same happens
to a jnani, but more so?
M: On the level of consciousness -- yes. In the supreme state, no. This
state is entirely one and indivisible, a single solid block of reality. The
only way of knowing it is to be it. The mind cannot reach it. To perceive it
does not need the senses; to know it, does not need the mind.
Q: That is how God runs the world.
M: God is not running the world.
Q: Then who is doing it?
M: Nobody. All happens by itself. You are asking the question and you are
supplying the answer. And you know the answer when you ask the question. All
is a play in consciousness. All divisions are illusory. You can know the
false only. The true you must yourself be.
Q: There is the witnessed
consciousness and there is the witnessing consciousness. Is the second the
supreme?
M: There are the two -- the person and the witness, the observer. When you
see them as one, and go beyond, you are in the supreme state. It is not
perceivable, because it is what makes perception possible. It is beyond
being and not being. It is neither the mirror nor the image in the mirror.
It is what is -- the timeless reality, unbelievably hard and solid.
Q: The jnani -- is he the witness or
the Supreme?
M: He is the Supreme, of course, but he can also be viewed as the universal
witness.
Q: But he remains a person?
M: When you believe yourself to be a person, you see persons everywhere. In
reality there are no persons, only threads of memories and habits. At the
moment of realisation the person ceases.
Identity remains, but identity is not a person, it is inherent in the
reality itself. The person has no being in itself; it is a reflection in the
mind of the witness, the 'I am', which again is a mode of being.
Q: Is the Supreme conscious?
M: Neither conscious nor unconscious, I am telling you from experience.
Q: Pragnanam Brahma. What is this
Pragna?
M: It is the un-selfconscious knowledge of life itself.
Q: Is it vitality, the energy of
life, livingness?
M: Energy comes first. For everything is a form of energy. Consciousness is
most differentiated in the waking state. Less so in dream. Still less in
sleep. Homogeneous -- in the fourth state. Beyond is the inexpressible
monolithic reality, the abode of the jnani.
Q: I have cut my hand. It healed. By
what power did it heal?
M: By the power of life.
Q: What is that power?
M: It is consciousness. AII is conscious.
Q: What is the source of
consciousness?
M: Consciousness itself is the source of everything.
Q: Can there be life without
consciousness?
M: No, nor consciousness without life. They are both one. But in reality
only the Ultimate is. The rest is a matter of name and form. And as long as
you cling to the idea that only what has name and shape exists, the Supreme
will appear to you non-existing. When you understand that names and shapes
are hollow shells without any content whatsoever, and what is real is
nameless and formless, pure energy of life and light of consciousness, you
will be at peace -- immersed in the deep silence of reality.
Q: If time and space are mere
illusions and you are beyond, please tell me what is the weather in New
York. Is it hot or raining there?
M: How can I tell you? Such things need special training. Or, just
travelling to New York. I may be quite certain that I am beyond time and
space, and yet unable to locate myself at will at some point of time and
space. I am not interested enough; I see no purpose in undergoing a special
Yogic training. I have just heard of New York. To me it is a word. Why
should I know more than the word conveys? Every atom may be a universe, as
complex as ours. Must I know them all? I can -- if I
train.
Q: In putting the question about the
weather in New York, where did I make the mistake?
M: The world and the mind are states of being. The supreme is not a state.
It pervades, all states, but it is not a state of something else. It is
entirely uncaused, independent, complete in itself, beyond time and space,
mind and matter.
Q: By what sign do you recognise it?
M: That's the point that it leaves no traces. There is nothing to recognise
it by. It must be seen directly, by giving up all search for signs and
approaches. When all names and forms have been given up, the real is with
you. You need not seek it. Plurality and diversity are the play of the mind
only. Reality is one.
Q: If reality leaves no evidence,
there is no speaking about it.
M: It is. It cannot be denied. It is deep and dark, mystery beyond mystery.
But it is, while all else merely happens.
Q: Is it the Unknown?
M: It is beyond both, the known and the unknown. But I would rather call it
the known, than the unknown. For whenever something is known, it is the real
that is known.
Q: Is silence an attribute of the
real?
M: This too is of the mind. All states and conditions are of the mind.
Q: What is the place of samadhi?
M: Not making use of one's consciousness is samadhi. You just leave your
mind alone. You want nothing, neither-from your body nor from your mind.
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